Roof and glacis protection

[Kyle Harmse]

Sorry to pester you gentlemen

I notice that at least 80% of the kills the AI gets on me in the Leo 2A4 (hull down) is through shots to the turret front roof.

I'm trying to get a sense of the general levels of protection provided by front turret roof and glacis plates on modern MBTs. Consensus on what I've read so far is that, in general, it's surprisingly thin steel (40-70mm), obviously inclined at under 10 degrees obliquity. Can you guys give me some figures for, say, the Leo 2A4, the M1A1, and the Challenger?

Judging by the Steel Beasts model, the front turret roofs are 40mm for the Leo and 80mm for the Abrams. Close enough?

[Tacbat]

There are images of the tanks with their armour values within the SB wiki.

[Kyle Harmse]

There are images of the tanks with their armour values within the SB wiki.

To be clear, yes, I know the Leo is modelled with 478mm effective RHA on its front roof and the Abrams with 802mm. What I'd like to know is how those figures match with the tank's actual construction. For example, this article:

http://btvt.narod.ru/raznoe/leopard2/Leo2a4.htm, claims that the Leo has 70mm (or the equivalent of 574mm of RHA) of front roof plate, and that the section in front of the commander is much thicker still. :-P

Point being, it seems like the upper quarter of the Leo's turret is under protected from the front- which is a reasonable compromise to make when one considers that in a good hull down position that profile is reduced, ricochets are more likely, and real world human gunners are unlikely to be aiming at its "glass forehead". I'd just like to hear from some knowledgeable folks about what they reckon it is (a definitive tape measure pic would also be great :-P)

[Volcano]

Both roofs are of comparable thicknesses, and are relatively flat, so most of the difference in LOS thickness would likely be from slight differences in angle.

How exactly are you being shot in the turret roof all the time though? Seems to me that you would have to be angled down to even hit it (or lob a HEAT round onto it or hit with a TOW-2B, in which case there isn't much defense for either other than ERA on the roof).

[Grenny]

To be clear, yes, I know the Leo is modelled with 478mm effective RHA on its front roof and the Abrams with 802mm. What I'd like to know is how those figures match with the tank's actual construction. For example, this article:

http://btvt.narod.ru/raznoe/leopard2/Leo2a4.htm, claims that the Leo has 70mm (or the equivalent of 574mm of RHA) of front roof plate, and that the section in front of the commander is much thicker still. :-P

Point being, it seems like the upper quarter of the Leo's turret is under protected from the front- which is a reasonable compromise to make when one considers that in a good hull down position that profile is reduced, ricochets are more likely, and real world human gunners are unlikely to be aiming at its "glass forehead". I'd just like to hear from some knowledgeable folks about what they reckon it is (a definitive tape measure pic would also be great :-P)

You are asking for classified info here. I am sure that anyone who has "tape measure" pics, is not foolish enough to post them here...

[Kyle Harmse]

You are asking for classified info here. I am sure that anyone who has "tape measure" pics, is not foolish enough to post them here...

I wouldn't expect anyone to violate OPSEC or a NDA, especially not for a current MBT :-O Though, there's lots of publically available pics of people who have done so for various components of the armour, like these from this article (http://btvt.narod.ru/raznoe/leopard2/Leo2a4.htm):

The author took these from Polish Leo 2A4's.

We don't know the composition of these armour plates, naturally, so all I was asking for as some guesstimations. Please don't blacklist me, BND agents :-O

Both roofs are of comparable thicknesses, and are relatively flat, so most of the difference in LOS thickness would likely be from slight differences in angle.

How exactly are you being shot in the turret roof all the time though? Seems to me that you would have to be angled down to even hit it (or lob a HEAT round onto it or hit with a TOW-2B, in which case there isn't much defense for either other than ERA on the roof).

To clarify Volcano, this is how I get killed a lot (if I'm being foolish and engaging without obscuration):

Most reverse slopes aren't steep enough for me to completely obscure the sloping part of the upper front roof. BM-32s and BM-42s that would and are stopped by the turret front proper, that hit the roof this way tend to kill me this way around half the time.

[Grenny]

Never underestimate fools then. Edit: to clear this up. I consider those who let these pix be taken fools at best.

[Kyle Harmse]

Okay, figured out why I was getting killed by those shots. Turns out I was not on as steep a slope as I thought I was, exposing the front edge of the roof too much.

Also, I'll quit bothering you guys with all these finicky technical questions. It's in poor form, kind of like asking a lady how much she weighs

[3instein]

Okay, figured out why I was getting killed by those shots. Turns out I was not on as steep a slope as I thought I was, exposing the front edge of the roof too much.

Also, I'll quit bothering you guys with all these finicky technical questions. It's in poor form, kind of like asking a lady how much she weighs

Hi Kyle,

Please don't stop with the questions as the discussions that have arisen from your other questions have resulted in good conversation which in turn is very educational and enjoyable to read the information that it produces.

Mick.