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The future of reconaissance


Tjay

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UAVs have only short loiter times, and are highly vulnerable against a well-equipped enemy. They work only under the benign conditions of a near-uncontested airspace. Their narrow field of view, combined with the high resolution camera image of what it can see, is conducive to the development of a false sense of complete situational awareness.

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And drones are weather dependent. Ground recce are affected by bad weather as well but not nerely as much as drones.

There is really nothing in the world (IMHO) that can replace a grunt (W Vehicles) on the ground. Allot of technology can enhance the grunt on the ground but never replace them.

/KT

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Governments:mad3:, not the army, is betting on technology to do the leg work of recce units. This has proven to be a fools choice, and will continue to have the predictable bad results:c:.

The arms industry has flashy ads and shiny new toys for our elected officials to support for their re-election, nothing to do with what is required.

If the arms industry had put as much time, and $$$ in to electric cars instead of drones ....well you know the rest. :)

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The folks who fly drones are trained to fly drones.

The folks who conduct recon are trained to conduct recon.

I'm thinking that it shouldn't be totally impossible to train drone pilots in the art of reconnaissance. Or train a recce specialist to fly a drone. :clin: Thinks: yeah, maybe the second option is asking a bit much.

On the question of vulnerability, I think the fact that drones are very small, very manoeuvrable. have a minimal radar signal and are inaudible above 500ft even in quiet conditions, will prove that they are not so easy to shoot down as some people think. Also, think how many recce drones can you buy for the price of one armoured reconnaissance vehicle.

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Again, your assuming operating the drone in an environment of air superiority. Smaller drones are not as "useful" as one would think. And the larger drones with longer loiter times are the size of small general aviation aircraft. Add in an enemy with any sort of cyber capability and your drones are at risk.

The biggest mistake of modern "superpowers" (i.e. the US) is forgetting history and lessons learned. If the enemy goes stone age we don't have crap to counter it.

Drones should support and supplement boots on the ground, not replace it.

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Again, your assuming operating the drone in an environment of air superiority. Smaller drones are not as "useful" as one would think. And the larger drones with longer loiter times are the size of small general aviation aircraft. Add in an enemy with any sort of cyber capability and your drones are at risk.

The biggest mistake of modern "superpowers" (i.e. the US) is forgetting history and lessons learned. If the enemy goes stone age we don't have crap to counter it.

Drones should support and supplement boots on the ground, not replace it.

Actually I'm not assuming anything. :clin: I put the subject up for discussion but that doesn't mean I subscribe to the statement. I'm not in one camp or the other personally.

But if smaller drones 'not as useful as one might think', I feel you need to explain why. Are the manufacturers making exaggerated claims in your opinion? And I should have made clear in my first post that I was thinking of the smaller, battlefield drones that can be deployed at company level - not things like the Predator and Reaper.

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And I should have made clear in my first post that I was thinking of the smaller, battlefield drones that can be deployed at company level - not things like the Predator and Reaper.

Well if you are looking at Sub unit and below reconnaissance then "Using ground vehicles for reconnaissance" doesn't really work that well as you are pretty much on top of the enemy anyway.

So your next task is to define what level of reconnaissance are you wishing to discuss?

The predominately foot mounted section at Company level. These guys are probably just from within the Company and are told to go out and check on something pretty close by (ideally though within the unit reconnaissance plan)

Then, arguably the first dedicated reconnaissance asset exists in the "Recon Platoon" of many Rifle Battalions (already one level up from the Company level you are now focused on).

Then Formation reconnaissance (the land of the ASLAV, Scimitar, BDRM, Scorpion, motor cycle, etc.).

Then Divisional (and higher) reconnaissance (more Formation assets and add in the guys who do the Bravo Two Zero type gigs).

If you are wishing to limit the "discussion" to the micro piece of dirt 1000 - 2500m forward of the Infantry's pits then ground vehicles aren't in that space normally anyway.

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Well. At the infrantry level, recon is done foot anyway. However, with availability of micro drone or by beeing able to tap into data feeds from drones or othet air assets, the SA of the ground forces can increase dramaticly. Again, this only augments the short range recon...and has nothing to do with recon vehicles.

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Well if you are looking at Sub unit and below reconnaissance then "Using ground vehicles for reconnaissance" doesn't really work that well as you are pretty much on top of the enemy anyway.

So your next task is to define what level of reconnaissance are you wishing to discuss?

The predominately foot mounted section at Company level. These guys are probably just from within the Company and are told to go out and check on something pretty close by (ideally though within the unit reconnaissance plan)

Then, arguably the first dedicated reconnaissance asset exists in the "Recon Platoon" of many Rifle Battalions (already one level up from the Company level you are now focused on).

Then Formation reconnaissance (the land of the ASLAV, Scimitar, BDRM, Scorpion, motor cycle, etc.).

Then Divisional (and higher) reconnaissance (more Formation assets and add in the guys who do the Bravo Two Zero type gigs).

If you are wishing to limit the "discussion" to the micro piece of dirt 1000 - 2500m forward of the Infantry's pits then ground vehicles aren't in that space normally anyway.

Indeed, depends what role we are discussing.

From Globalhawks which are essentially unmanned U2 spyplanes.

Down to MAVs (See below)

On the question of vulnerability, I think the fact that drones are very small, very manoeuvrable. have a minimal radar signal and are inaudible above 500ft even in quiet conditions, will prove that they are not so easy to shoot down as some people think. Also, think how many recce drones can you buy for the price of one armoured reconnaissance vehicle.

Minimal Radar Signature is not "invisible" as one F-117 pilot found out the hard way.

Again, your assuming operating the drone in an environment of air superiority. Smaller drones are not as "useful" as one would think. And the larger drones with longer loiter times are the size of small general aviation aircraft. Add in an enemy with any sort of cyber capability and your drones are at risk.
Smaller drones are little more than a RC Plane/Helicopter with a ground linked camera.

I.E. the 21st century US version of a periscope.

(A bit more capable, but that is the role it fills)

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Well the better the framed the question is, the more useful the discussion. ;)

If between you, you work out if you want to discuss reconnaissance vehicles in the Strategic sphere at the Infantry Company and below then there is a chance you might get useful responses.

As it stands the first page of answers are pretty much useless as the scope of the question has changed. :)

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I think it's safe to say that our enemies will probably start to employ quadcopters with cameras for near-field aerial observation. So there, a prediction from me. Well, they are already in use in the Ukraine, so it doesn't require much extrapolation.

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Thanks for all the replies. Apologies to the pros that the exact parameters of the recconnaissance to be discsussed were not defined - largely due to me not fully appreciating the difference between the various types. So it's been very educational for me - and I hope some others.

Two members of my local model flying club have camera-equipped 'quadcopters' and their abilities are awesome. Very little flying skill is required and they can be programmed to fly to a given GPS location, take pics and return to base (give or take 10cm or so) automatically. Range is limited by battery capacity, but a mile is definitely possible. If, when flying manually the thing goes out of sight or you become disorientated you simply push a button, take your hands of the sticks and it comes back to land at your feet. And these are just toys, remember.

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Smaller drones are little more than a RC Plane/Helicopter with a ground linked camera.

I.E. the 21st century US version of a periscope.

(A bit more capable, but that is the role it fills)

the brits loves this one:

blackhornetnano.jpg

norwegian nanodrone, with 20-30 minute flight time, and fits into an ammunition pouch.

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Some on the History of recon:

"oculi exercitius" ;-)

With that equipment the units where still able to form Heavy recon team and "fight for info".

Also nice to see the change between mounted and dismounted recon.

With the Fennek the abilities and doctrin changes quiete dramaticly.

Edited by Grenny
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