Homer Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Interesting article.http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 I suspect the Moors and the Crusaders might differ with the Author. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted March 13, 2015 Author Share Posted March 13, 2015 I think he was addressing their performance post-WW2 to present. The Moors didn't do so well in WW1 either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furia Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 A very interesting article. It is dated in 1999 but still holds valid today. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rump Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 And a follow up article by the same author:http://www.rubincenter.org/2013/03/western-influence-on-arab-militaries-pounding-square-pegs-into-round-holes/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted March 13, 2015 Moderators Share Posted March 13, 2015 Good point about NCOs. NCOs are the ones who take care of the soldiers, lead them at the front, and should care for them like they are his children. They also make sure the soldiers are adaquately trained, and make sure that the mission (given by officers) gets accomplished. All of this yields esprit de corps, high morale, and initiative. Without a working NCO corps, you cannot have an effective army. This makes me wonder how the modern PLA and NKPA would perform as they are very similar in this regard AFAIK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted March 13, 2015 Share Posted March 13, 2015 Good point about NCOs. NCOs are the ones who take care of the soldiers, lead them at the front, and should care for them like they are his children. They also make sure the soldiers are adaquately trained, and make sure that the mission (given by officers) gets accomplished. All of this yields esprit de corps, high morale, and initiative. Without a working NCO corps, you cannot have an effective army. This makes me wonder how the modern PLA and NKPA would perform as they are very similar in this regard AFAIK.Very valid point,I remember reading just before the collapse of the soviet union a top soviet general was visiting the states (official visit). One of the base's he visited put on a good show all there Latest kit for the General to inspect he had no interest at all in it.He wanted to discuss with the NCO's present how much they were paidAnd could they support a family on what they were earning.Was there housing quarters suitable to raise a familySeemingly the US officers present were completely baffled by this.Point is even the soviets were beginning to realise the core of any army is the quality of There NCO's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryOwen Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 I read this some years ago. It seemed thorough at the time. The author, though not the particular work, is cited in the first linked article.http://www.amazon.com/Arabs-War-Military-Effectiveness-1948-1991/dp/0803287836/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1426297666&sr=1-1&keywords=arabs+at+war 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 In French Land army (Armée de Terre) we (nco) are the backbone of the army.An NCO is either a squad leader (caporal) after some years of service (2 to 5 -called semi-direct-or 11-called rang) in the army or directly engaged (called directs) as NCO.Both pass by the National NCO school and received the same formation, but during different times.Directs have to be first graduate as squad leader.after 8 years an NCO pass an exam to entry in platoon leader courses.If he succeeds he might be platoon leader later and stay in the army until he reaches 56 years old.If he fails, he has to quit after 11 years of service (direct) or 19 (semi-direct or rang).During his carreer, a NCO can pass an exam to be officer.A good friend started as enlisted in 1994, being NCO after 5 years, succeed the platoon leader course, and later the officer course.He is going to command his squadron next year.I began as direct in 1994 and quit in 2009 after being platoon leader during 3 years.I remember in 2001, an US General came to Saumur Armor School and was very surprised to see we were only sergents during the platoon leader courses, and performed better than officers! Eh, we had 8 years as tank commander before, they had none! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted March 14, 2015 Author Share Posted March 14, 2015 And a follow up article by the same author:http://www.rubincenter.org/2013/03/western-influence-on-arab-militaries-pounding-square-pegs-into-round-holes/Good find. Thanks... Without a working NCO corps, you cannot have an effective army. This makes me wonder how the modern PLA and NKPA would perform as they are very similar in this regard AFAIK.I know nothing about the NKPA but this is not true about the PLA. The performance of the Allies in the first gulf war really freaked them out. It is what motivated their modernization program. It's not just the equipment but the entire institution. NCOs are already in use now. They have no problem adapting western ideas unlike the mid east nations. However, it's going to take them at least another 20 years for any significantly concrete results because of the baggage from Mao's PLA. I got some reading materials if you want it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankHunter Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 On a related note, here is some analysis on the IDF Ground Force by COL. Pat Lang (Ret.). I'll quote the bit about their NCOs.- There are no career ground force sergeants except as technicians. Unless the system has changed very recently, the IDF ground forces typically do not have career NCOs in the LINE of the combat arms. This is a structural tradition that derives originally from the Russian tsar's army and which came to Palestine through Russian and Polish Zionist immigrants. Then this passed through the Haganah into the IDF. The IDF "line" conscripts what amount to yearly classes of recruits and selects from them more promising soldiers who are given NCO level command responsibilities as; infantry leaders, tank commanders, artillery gun captains, etc. The IDF does have career NCOs but they are typically found in jobs of a more technical nature rather than junior combat command at the squad or platoon (section) level. As a result, junior officers (company grade) are required to perform duties that in more traditionally organized armies would be performed by sergeants. Leading a small combat or reconnaissance patrol would be an example. As a result, a non-reserve infantry or tank company in the field consists of people who are all about the same age (19-22) and commanded by a captain in his mid 20s. What is missing in this scene is the voice of grown up counsel provided by sergeants in their 30s and 40s telling these young people what it is that would be wise to do based on real experience and mature judgment. In contrast a 22 year old American platoon leader would have a mature platoon sergeant as his assistant and counselor.- As a result of this system of manning, the IDF's ground force is more unpredictable and volatile at the tactical (company) level than might be the case otherwise. The national government has a hard time knowing whether or not specific policies will be followed in the field. For example, the Israeli government's policy in the present action in the Gaza Strip has been to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. Based on personal experience of the behavior of IDF conscripts toward Palestinian civilians, I would say that the Israeli government has little control over what individual groups of these young Israeli soldiers may do in incidents like the one yesterday in which mortar fire was directed toward UN controlled school buildings.In Beit Suhur outside Bethlehem, I have seen IDF troops shoot at Palestinian Christian women hanging out laundry in their gardens. This was done with tank coaxial machine guns from within a bermed up dirt fort a couple of hundred yards away, and evidently just for the fun of it. In Bethlehem a lieutenant told me that he would have had his men shoot me in the street during a demonstration that I happened to get caught in, but that he had not because he thought I might not be a Palestinian and that if I were not the incident would have caused him some trouble. I have seen a lot of things like that. One might say that in war, s--t happens. That is true, but such behavior is indicative of an army that is not well disciplined and not a completely reliably instrument of state policy. In my travels in the west Bank in March of 2008, it was noticeable that the behavior towards Palestinian civilians of IDF troops at roadblocks was reminiscent of that of any group of post-adolescents given guns and allowed to bully the helpless in order to look tough for each other. I think the IDF would be well advised to grow some real sergeants.http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/07/the-idf-ground.htmlIt is an interesting read and I advise that it be read in its entirety (its short so it won't take too long). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted March 15, 2015 Author Share Posted March 15, 2015 You weren't kidding when you said it was short. I found out long ago that the popular image of the IDF is far removed from reality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I found out long ago that the popular image of the IDF is far removed from reality.A while ago (so either comparison may have changed) a colleague of mine referred to them as:"A 3rd rate Army surrounded by 5th rate enemies." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacbat Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Nice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I suppose I have been taken in by the Israeli military propaganda machine.But I was under the impression they trained to a very high level and were a first rate army.As for there treatment of Arabs and even peacekeepers that leaves a lot to be desiredI was talking to a retired Irish soldier and peacekeeper yesterday.Some of the stories he told me of the Israeli military targeting peacekeepers was certainly An eye opener. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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