DanishTanker Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Was wondering what the Wiki ammunition penetration figures are based on? Are they the actual ingame figures? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogwa Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 They are based detailed research, measurements when possible, informed inference, and possibly even whispers from the deity of your choice. Yes, these numbers reflect armor on that portion of the vehicle in game.Hope this helps,Mog 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejawolf Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Was wondering what the Wiki ammunition penetration figures are based on? Are they the actual ingame figures?mostly janes, and odermatt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 mostly janes, and odermatt.Which in turn tend to be the "releasable" figures (which may, or may not, align with the real capability). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted July 3, 2015 Members Share Posted July 3, 2015 The Odermatt equation, as useful as it is for APFSDS rounds, only helps if you know the variables that go into it. That's where the "educated guesses" start to play a role.Specifically however, the Wiki figures I would assume that they directly reflect the values that Steel Beasts uses, but since I'm neither writing the Wiki nor checking it for accuracy I cannot vouch for it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted July 3, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 3, 2015 Correct, the SB wiki values reflect those that are used in SB. I went over them recently to make sure they were updated, although I might have missed some. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenny Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 There are many number regarding armour and penetration values of ammunitions in steelbeasts that do NOT equal the real world numbers, as these are often classified.But esim has them right enough to achieve the desired training effect/value and gives us at least plausible engagement results . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacbat Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 They seem plausible enough that others have plagiarized, I mean "borrowed" them IIRC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishTanker Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 Correct, the SB wiki values reflect those that are used in SB. I went over them recently to make sure they were updated, although I might have missed some.In that case they seem to have changed a lot recently, as at one point the DM53 was listed as better than the M829A3 by penetrating 900mm of armour at 4000m through the L/55 gun, but now its down to 800mm. That's a big change. I wonder why it would change?Also out of curiousity, how come the longer barrel of the L/55 gun only adds an extra 60 m/s to the DM33 projectile (1650 vs 1710 m/s) when it adds 150 m/s when firing the DM53 projectile (1650 vs 1800 m/s) ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Volcano Posted July 5, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2015 In that case they seem to have changed a lot recently, as at one point the DM53 was listed as better than the M829A3 by penetrating 900mm of armour at 4000m through the L/55 gun, but now its down to 800mm. That's a big change. I wonder why it would change? Well, all this is explained in the most recent release notes IIRC. But long story short: it was due to recalculations and correcting a specific variable in the original calculations. Occasionally things are re-calculated from time to time, every 5-10 years or so. Also out of curiousity, how come the longer barrel of the L/55 gun only adds an extra 60 m/s to the DM33 projectile (1650 vs 1710 m/s) when it adds 150 m/s when firing the DM53 projectile (1650 vs 1800 m/s) ?Well, 1800 m/s (DM53 L55) is an SBwiki typo that I just corrected. So, as you can see - the wiki has typos or is often not up to date with the correct data. This inevitably happens over time.The correct value is actually 1750 m/s which is in use, and is an average of what Jane's Ammunition Handbook (JAH) states both to be (our primary source in most cases, unless better first hand information is available). As for why the DM33 has a +60m/s and DM53 has +100m/s difference, well, maybe it has to do with propellant type - but again that is what JAH states both to be and, actually, the 1750 value is an average between two velocities that JAH mentions for the DM53 L55 on the exact same page. Unless I am mistaken (someone correct me if I am wrong), velocity and penetration power (KE) vary from shot to shot in real life, creating a range of performance which makes nit picking of ~10 m/s or ~10mm (for 120mm KE ammo at least) a bit silly. I am a little confused why you don't look the values up in SB instead of the wiki? :confused: The wiki is only intended as a quick reference for scenario designers and spur of the moment AAR type references. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I am a little confused why you don't look the values up in SB instead of the wiki? :confused: The wiki is only intended as a quick reference for scenario designers and spur of the moment AAR type references. Just every other Wiki (including wikipedia), its as accurate as the last person who edited it. There is no editorial committee / resident fact checker. Whilst most of it is of course posted in good faith that doesn't mean there are not typos or errors of fact. "Fact" like Jane's costs $$$. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenny Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 ...As for why the DM33 has a +60m/s and DM53 has +100m/s difference, well, maybe it has to do with propellant type - but again that is what JAH states both to be and, actually, the 1750 value is an average between two velocities that JAH mentions for the DM53 L55 on the exact same page. Unless I am mistaken (someone correct me if I am wrong), velocity and penetration power (KE) vary from shot to shot in real life, creating a range of performance which makes nit picking of ~10 m/s or ~10mm (for 120mm KE ammo at least) a bit silly.....Propellant Temperature is one of many, but a significant factor that change the v0 of the shots. +/- X-Kelvin can mean +/- Y-m/s...in a funny nonlinear function :-PThe DM-53 has be optimized for the L-55 barrel, while the DM-33 is fitted for the L-44 barrel. The "burn-over-time" charactersitics of the propellant for the DM-33 mean that it gets less benefit from the longer barrel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishTanker Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 Well, all this is explained in the most recent release notes IIRC. But long story short: it was due to recalculations and correcting a specific variable in the original calculations. Occasionally things are re-calculated from time to time, every 5-10 years or so. Well, 1800 m/s (DM53 L55) is an SBwiki typo that I just corrected. So, as you can see - the wiki has typos or is often not up to date with the correct data. This inevitably happens over time. The correct value is actually 1750 m/s which is in use, and is an average of what Jane's Ammunition Handbook (JAH) states both to be (our primary source in most cases, unless better first hand information is available). As for why the DM33 has a +60m/s and DM53 has +100m/s difference, well, maybe it has to do with propellant type - but again that is what JAH states both to be and, actually, the 1750 value is an average between two velocities that JAH mentions for the DM53 L55 on the exact same page. Unless I am mistaken (someone correct me if I am wrong), velocity and penetration power (KE) vary from shot to shot in real life, creating a range of performance which makes nit picking of ~10 m/s or ~10mm (for 120mm KE ammo at least) a bit silly. Oh ok, was just curious why the values would change that much all of a sudden if the game bases its figures on real life values M829A3 & DM53 values changed three times in the last two years IIRC, which seems a bit odd Also read somewhere that the muzzle velocity of the DM53 is over 1750 m/s, or 1750+ m/s, where'as the DM63 was a consistent 1750 m/s in all temps. I think it was in a statement by Rheinmetall? Also remember the L/55 barrel provided a ~30% increase in range, i.e. increasing the max effective range from 4000 to 5000 m? Again I believe this was a statement by Rheinmetall. I am a little confused why you don't look the values up in SB instead of the wiki? :confused: The wiki is only intended as a quick reference for scenario designers and spur of the moment AAR type references. The reason I don't look it up in SB is because I sadly don't own it yet Been following the game on and off for a long time, but just never felt I had the time to get into it until now, and then I figured I would feel myself around abit on the forums first before buying the game, just to make sure that I'm not going to get completely lost once I start playing and also to see what the community is like Been watching a lot of youtube videos as well to prepare myself, but I am still nervous in regards to the mouse controlled turret traverse & gun elevation mechanic, and really wonder how well that works, esp. for tracking shots. I'm an avid flight & racing simmer, so I'm not a big fan of mouse controlling vehicle movement, and I'm unsure wether a flight stick will simulate the turret controls well 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDF Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 The reason I don't look it up in SB is because I sadly don't own it yet Been following the game on and off for a long time, but just never felt I had the time to get into it until now, and then I figured I would feel myself around abit on the forums first before buying the game, just to make sure that I'm not going to get completely lost once I start playing and also to see what the community is like Been watching a lot of youtube videos as well to prepare myself, but I am still nervous in regards to the mouse controlled turret traverse & gun elevation mechanic, and really wonder how well that works, esp. for tracking shots. I'm an avid flight & racing simmer, so I'm not a big fan of mouse controlling vehicle movement, and I'm unsure wether a flight stick will simulate the turret controls well Why not get the 1 month license for US $9.50? Then you will know for sure, without much financial risk. By the way, I use a Thrustmaster Warthog, supplemented by the mouse for long distance shots on moving targets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishTanker Posted July 6, 2015 Author Share Posted July 6, 2015 Why not get the 1 month license for US $9.50? Then you will know for sure, without much financial risk. By the way, I use a Thrustmaster Warthog, supplemented by the mouse for long distance shots on moving targets. I guess, just seemed a little expensive for a month considering the amount of time I'd have available to try it. Hence I'm mostly for buying the complete game at 115 dollars, also because I want to give my support in the hopes that a successor will follow at some point provided enough interest is shown in this version Regarding your setup, how does that work? Does the mouse provide better control? I would've thought that the stick provided better control of traverse speed? Although I will say that from watching videos of SB the mouse control does seem like its a lot more precise and better simulates the operation & capability of the real life controls than any other tank simulation where the gun reticle simply chases the cursor around - which I've always loathed. Only tank game I've ever really liked as a result was Darkest Hour with its WASD controlled traverse and elevation mechanic, just simulated how the gun was aimed much better than any mouse mechanic I've ever seen. SB's mouse mechanic seems different though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dejawolf Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 if you get used to it, the SB turret traverse mechanic is very accurate. i've got a joystick, but prefer the mouse. although there's always the game controller: which is similar to the challenger 2 control handle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I guess, just seemed a little expensive for a month considering the amount of time I'd have available to try it.Drop me an email/pm and we maybe able to arrange access to one of my licences and activate it when your window of opportunity opens? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjay Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I guess, just seemed a little expensive for a month considering the amount of time I'd have available to try it. Well, if you don't have time to try it, there's not much anyone can do to help you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDF Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Regarding your setup, how does that work? Does the mouse provide better control? I would've thought that the stick provided better control of traverse speed? Although I will say that from watching videos of SB the mouse control does seem like its a lot more precise and better simulates the operation & capability of the real life controls than any other tank simulation where the gun reticle simply chases the cursor around - which I've always loathed. Only tank game I've ever really liked as a result was Darkest Hour with its WASD controlled traverse and elevation mechanic, just simulated how the gun was aimed much better than any mouse mechanic I've ever seen. SB's mouse mechanic seems different though.When you have a joystick controller, the mouse is still fully functional. The only thing you need to do to activate mouse control is to click anywhere on the screen. You're correct that mouse control works differently (in the SB optics views) than in, for example, a first-person shooter. In SB, the speed of turret movement depends on how far off-center the mouse cursor is. So, if you keep the mouse very close to center, the turret (i.e., your GPS field of view) will move very slowly along the vector from the screen center to your current mouse cursor position. The further your cursor is from the center, the faster the turret moves. That allows for very fine control. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishTanker Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 Drop me an email/pm and we maybe able to arrange access to one of my licences and activate it when your window of opportunity opens? Wow, that's mighty kind of you! :cvcsalut: I'll write you a pm next week, as I think I will get the time there 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishTanker Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 if you get used to it, the SB turret traverse mechanic is very accurate. i've got a joystick, but prefer the mouse. although there's always the game controller: which is similar to the challenger 2 control handle. But surely the Challenger control handle is rotated/turned like a wheel ? You can't really do that with a controller But I think that the mouse might be the way to go for this simulation, esp. when it's simulated the way MDF explains 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAJ_Fubar Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 But surely the Challenger control handle is rotated/turned like a wheel ? You can't really do that with a controller But I think that the mouse might be the way to go for this simulation, esp. when it's simulated the way MDF explains No, the Challenger's control handles are stationary. Turret movement is controlled with the thumb pad on the right side, similar to an X-Box or PS2/3 controller. In the end in comes down to personal preference when it comes to controllers in SB. As a former M1 gunner and tank commander, I prefer a joystick because it makes the turret feel "heavier" and less responsive, behaving closer to what I've experienced on real tanks. Others prefer the speed and accuracy afforded by the mouse; to each their own... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishTanker Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 No, the Challenger's control handles are stationary. Turret movement is controlled with the thumb pad on the right side, similar to an X-Box or PS2/3 controller. I see, that's a bit of an odd design IMO, but perhaps it's easier to use when on the move?In the end in comes down to personal preference when it comes to controllers in SB. As a former M1 gunner and tank commander, I prefer a joystick because it makes the turret feel "heavier" and less responsive, behaving closer to what I've experienced on real tanks. Others prefer the speed and accuracy afforded by the mouse; to each their own...Copy that. Btw: Do you think that's one of the reason the Leopard 2 switched to an all electric turret drive? For better responsiveness? Cause previously it used the same hydraulic system as the Abrams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishTanker Posted July 7, 2015 Author Share Posted July 7, 2015 Btw, is there a shooting range ingame where you can pratice shooting after moving targets? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt DeFault Posted July 7, 2015 Share Posted July 7, 2015 Btw, is there a shooting range ingame where you can pratice shooting after moving targets?Yes. And if you set up a profile, your score on the range will determine the accuracy/efficiency of all friendly AI AFVs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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