Dog and Sparrow delay action 1988 COOP; 28th nov15

[Tjay]

Well that's up to you of course and I guess there's no point in continuing the discussion as you've already decided, apart from warning you that most PzBtl 911, LNoT, Rolling Thunder, Cold War Battles X, ... activities wont appeal to you because the scenario designers don't share your view.

Even KT's Reserve Demolition Guard one has the enemy being "unfair".

Well, obviously I will have to reconsider. I'm sure you are right but this scenario was the first one in which I've noticed in the AAR that the enemy had used territory outside our lane to get round behind us. I've played KT's Reserve Demolition Guard more than once and not noticed it. (You will undoubtedly say that is because I am unobservant/incompetent/etc. I wouldn't expect otherwise.) But now that I'm aware of this aspect I will keep a look out for it in future.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Tjay

[Tjay]

It's not always a bad thing to find the enemy behind you, because at that moment you are also behind him.

I can't quite see how, if I am facing East and the enemy is to my West pointing his gun at the rear of my tank how I am 'also behind him'. ??

[12Alfa]

This is not to place blame.:clin:

As a rule in troop responsibilities the c/s on the flanks are to obs to their flanks, This is a standard SOP within our troops. The wpn system will be pointed towards the main threat, but some member of the crew should be observing to their flank, this would ensure that the troop/Sqn does not get surprised by flanking enemy units.

Now this is not foolproof, but having no eyes looking is placing the troop in a very dangerous position within the Sqn as they are looking towards to the main effort.

In SB this can be done with you looking to your flank, and the AI gunner to the stated mission threat area.

Hopes this helps on the next mission.:luxhello:

[Tacbat]

I can't quite see how, if I am facing East and the enemy is to my West pointing his gun at the rear of my tank how I am 'also behind him'. ??

The enemy just realized he was behind you before you realized you were behind him and took advantage of that.

Where was the enemy 5, 10 or 15 min before that?

[Tjay]

This is not to place blame.:clin:

As a rule in troop responsibilities the c/s on the flanks are to obs to their flanks, This is a standard SOP within our troops. The wpn system will be pointed towards the main threat, but some member of the crew should be observing to their flank, this would ensure that the troop/Sqn does not get surprised by flanking enemy units.

Now this is not foolproof, but having no eyes looking is placing the troop in a very dangerous position within the Sqn as they are looking towards to the main effort.

In SB this can be done with you looking to your flank, and the AI gunner to the stated mission threat area.

Hopes this helps on the next mission.:luxhello:

Thanks for your input 12A. I get - and understand - the message in relation to RL. But I had always thought that the limitations imposed by trying to fight a war on a small, 2D screen meant that such flanking manoeuvres in SB scenarios were 'not on'. I obviously got that wrong. Any way, I have worked out a personal solution: I'll make sure that in future stay in the middle of the lane - and leave the flanks to others more experienced and competent.

[Grenny]

...y, I have worked out a personal solution: I'll made sure that in future stay in the middle of the lane - and leave the flanks to others more experienced and competent.

And where do you thinks you'll find those ;-)

[Tjay]

The enemy just realized he was behind you before you realized you were behind him and took advantage of that.

Where was the enemy 5, 10 or 15 min before that?

He was outside our AOA and working his way (unseen) round behind Delta platoon. If, when he cut back into the lane he had he turned left (in the direction of his normal advance), yes I would have been behind him. But, alas, he turned right and shot me up the backside before turning 180 and getting on with normal business.

So my next question is: if I had been paying attention to the text buffer and sussed this very unsporting behaviour, what should I have done? Presumably, pulled back so that he remained to my front and didn't get between me and the rest of the company?

[Tjay]

And where do you thinks you'll find those ;-)

Everywhere outside of my tank. And once again, thanks to all those who have pitched in with helpful and friendly advice.

[Gibsonm]

So my next question is: if I had been paying attention to the text buffer and sussed this very unsporting behaviour, what should I have done? Presumably, pulled back so that he remained to my front and didn't get between me and the rest of the company?

No !!!! - Tell Troop / Platoon Commander who will tell the Squadron / Company Commander.

Then wait for the Squadron / Company Commander to tell the Troop / Platoon Commander and then for the Troop / Platoon Commander to tell you what to do!

If you want to focus on commanding a vehicle and you are in a unit, you do what you are told (that’s the trade off - you are excused the requirement to make decisions but you need to follow the decisions made / orders given to you).

If it appears they haven’t noticed - remind your Troop / Platoon Commander.

You can make small adjustments yourself but not move several kms (an exaggeration to highlight a point - how far will vary on a bunch of stuff) without someone telling you.

It was precisely this attitude of doing your own thing without telling anyone “above” you - let alone getting permission / approval that caused the loss of the vehicle that just wandered off to “have a look”.

Of course if everyone above has died then sure do your own thing.

Alternatively move up the decision process to where you get more latitude / responsibility.

[Tjay]

Mark, I have a favour to ask. There are a number of people on this forum capable of answering the questions I pose, and they invariably do so in an informative and friendly manner. I find your responses (looking for the right word here...) 'unhelpful' in their tone. You probably consider that due to over-sensitivity on my part and that may be so. But it would help me a lot if you would, in future, ignore my posts and allow others to answer them in their own way. I trust that is OK with you.

[Marko]

Never mind mark.

[Hedgehog]

No !!!! - Tell Troop / Platoon Commander who will tell the Squadron / Company Commander.

Then wait for the Squadron / Company Commander to tell the Troop / Platoon Commander and then for the Troop / Platoon Commander to tell you what to do!

If you want to focus on commanding a vehicle and you are in a unit, you do what you are told (that’s the trade off - you are excused the requirement to make decisions but you need to follow the decisions made / orders given to you).

If it appears they haven’t noticed - remind your Troop / Platoon Commander.

You can make small adjustments yourself but not move several kms (an exaggeration to highlight a point - how far will vary on a bunch of stuff) without someone telling you.

It was precisely this attitude of doing your own thing without telling anyone “above” you - let alone getting permission / approval that caused the loss of the vehicle that just wandered off to “have a look”.

Of course if everyone above has died then sure do your own thing.

Alternatively move up the decision process to where you get more latitude / responsibility.

Given Mark's post above...

If I were the Platoon commander, I'd have broken off a callsign, have him back down off the hill (So his arse isn't waving in the wind) and turn around so he can see the valley where the T-80 "Appeared"

So you then have 2-3 tanks facing the main threat and 1 "Watching your back"

This is one of those things we can chalk up to a thing called "experience".

Some people pick it up quicker than others.

(Just be thankful this is virtual. Otherwise you'd be pretty crispy right now)

Don't beat yourself up from it.

I trust you have the AAR?

Load it up and have a good look around where you were active.

Take particular note of the lines of sight, and of the underlying terrain.

[Tjay]

Thanks for your input Hedge. Your suggestions make perfect sense to me and I will add them to the contributions provided by others.

I have merely pointed out to Mark that I find the tone of his replies to my posts somewhat unpleasant and have asked that in future, if I make comments or ask questions, he leave it to others to respond. I was particularly nonplussed by 'Alternatively move up the decision process to where you get more latitude / responsibility', as I had not in any way criticised him or any other player in the scenario, nor suggested that I knew better.

Our new arrangement will hopefully be a win-win. He is saved the frustration and irritation so evident in his replies - not to mention a shedload of typing - and I get the information I need from players equally qualified to provide it who do not rub my nose in mistakes I have already owned up to and who do not appear to dislike me personally. Better for everybody, all round.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Tjay

[Gibsonm]

Given Mark's post above...

If I were the Platoon commander, I'd have broken off a callsign, have him back down off the hill (So his arse isn't waving in the wind) and turn around so he can see the valley where the T-80 "Appeared".

Firstly none of this is/was directed at Tjay personally - he asked what people should generally do and that’s how I couched my replies.

Given the topic I kept things within the context of that mission but the principles are general in nature. Other Platoons within the Company did unusual things but his comments were focused on the Platoon he was a member of so my replies were too.

In that tone/context - Hedge you are wrong.

You might certainly suggest / recommend to the Squadron Commander that you detach a vehicle, they might indeed have already directed you to do so.

However you don’t unilaterally make big changes to the plan.

There is a fine line between initiative and chaos.

Yes the Troop is yours, yes you should have scope to have some freedom of action but no you don’t make big changes and certainly in the context of Tjay’s comments you don’t just drive off as an individual crew commander with your personal vehicle without getting permission for those a few levels up the food chain from yourself.

Presumably, pulled back so that he remained to my front and didn't get between me and the rest of the company?

Given that he wasn’t in command of the Troop, this sort of unilateral behaviour is wrong (whether he does it, I do it, whoever does it) if the Troop is still a unit - hence my comment about if you are on your own.

If that is OK in your book, I look forward to taking my CR2 for a scenic drive to where I personally think “my” tank can do the most good, during Cold War battles V.

[Tjay]

I hear what you say Mark, and absolutely do not dispute your expertise, experience or advice which I have found extremely useful on many occasions.

But it's an established fact that you and I simply do not get along and have subjected this forum to 'personal' spats over the last few years, largely resulting from the phraseology and 'tone' in our posts. I think we are both culpable in this respect.

I'm just trying to deconflict the situation to make life easier for both of us and spare forum members from being subject to our personal differences. I can't see that either of us is going to change our spots at this late stage, so my best shot at a solution remains my 'favour' request posted a bit earlier.