PincerDK

The german Luchs+Leo1 combo is gone now.

The PzAufklBtl had their Leopards so they could "fight for information" or act as a delay-taskforce. The actual recon job was done by Luchs or Luch+Fuchs combos...and that was more "sneak and peek".

Today there are NO MORE PzAufkl (armoured recon) but on AufklBtl /(light recon) equipped with the Fennek. They have better sensors but even less combat power the a Luchs.

Of course, with the change of the battlefield into assymmetric warfare, it is only reasonable, although that's too bad about the Fennek. What about the Wiesel thingy?

I'm afraid no SB vehicle can model the most important feature of the Luchs.

The reverse-gear-driver

No although that actually could be a cool feature in Steel Beasts.

The armored cavalry regiment has ceased to exist in the US Army, as of this year. 3 ACR will convert to a Stryker Brigade Combat Team, and is a "cavalry" unit in name only (sniffle, sniffle)

Ah damn, I hoped they would only convert 1 into a SBCT. And keep the rest

Thanks Gibsonm, maybe I will use this. Just need to hear from the UK-Armour guys. Do you always have sessions at 0900 GMT?

Hey!

They have tracks and a turret.

What more do you want?!

Well by that definition you could actually use a Caterpillar tractor as substitute for a Schimitar

I know, I'm just a greedy customer

Say, the desert would make a pretty neat Modern Campaigns theater. Please tell Mr. Tiller! (Middle East 67 not modern enough for me)

I think there's a 2005 mod for Middle East 67', same sides but different equipment.

´Ah sorry though from your earlier post that the CT was attacking the Bn complete.

But I'm not sure I follow as the terms like "Advance Guard" imply that the Soviets are attacking and therefore wouldn't be setting up a "deliberate" defence.

But anyway ...

Good book.

Well, the way I see it is that this company has been designated as the forward security element. It has advanced and has now stopped and put up defensive positions in order to prevent the counterattack by the Canadians.

The advance Guard Main Body is quickly following up and is therefore designated as the reserve that will help this FSE.

Maybe I should remove some of the minefields and artillery and change it to hasty defense, that would probably be more realistic.

On the other hand I could just change the terms. So the Combat reconnaissance patrol I have put up in front of the company, would be the Combat Security Observation Outpost (CSOP) and then the Main Defensive Line would be the rest of the FSE. Maybe change FSE to a regimental Combat Outpost.

A lot of possibilities, I haven't finished the scenario so I'm still deciding on what is what.

But yeah a good book. :-D

4CMBG was north of Baden-Baden and in Lahr.

Yes, true so not exactly in the vicinity of Hameln.

But I couldn't find any other combat teams that would be interesting to use.

The US company team is a bit used, the british don't have all their units in the game, although you could of course use proxies. The germans is also bit used, but would be more realistic.

Maybe a dutch company team from 1989 would also be good, but I don't know how they would operate, probably 2 APC platoons (Which APC?) and 1 Leopard 1 platoon (3 or 4 vehicles?)

First Clash has been done by the 1ACD and will return very soon............

Can't wait.

Yes, it played very well in the old version, this version will be a hoot. Almost finished the updating of the maps.

Is Counterstroke any good compared to First Clash?

I heard of this Volcano guy before, man he really gets around.

(that's what she said)

Yes, Always talking about his superb mod for D'85 and his great knowledge of US tanks.

Urgh! Can't stand that guy!

(Just kidding )

Whereas from about the end of the Second World War on the Americans have always had a "fight for information" approach (only changing now as budget constraints convert more and more of their ACRs from "heavy" tracked to "light" wheeled).

Although that kind of changed with the Divisional Cavalry Squadrons in the 80s, I think.

During that time the divisional cavalry squadron was purely 3 Platoons of 6 M3. I believe there was some controversy regarding this decision since before that it was composed of M60s and M113.

Gary Owen recently made a scenario that showed this. The CRP recon mission. Which was IMO a very interesting and fun scenario.

But yeah, I think it is fascinating the two different approaches to reconnaissance.

Well - since it seems that SB Pro PE Night Combat isn't ready for prime time I'm gonna dump the effort and move on.

That said: The attached is what has been built so far. Might be a good skeleton for a scenario with what I think is a fairly interesting map that may be of use to some.

Won't work at night and most of red's fire control is set to various we saw you events which we now know don't really work.

Still the units available, the map and the current setup might work for an assault or penetration scenario by giving red some arty support, smoke and follow on spawn if type reinforcements along with adding another company or two of western units. It has multiplayer coop possibilities or if the playable T72 is added in place of the T-80 companies a potentially decent BLUE v RED MP scenario with appropriate changes made.

Or not.

OH. It also contains a custom US Call Sign Template as the default call sign one annoyed the hell out of me.

Do with it as you will.

Looks cool Werewolf. Looks simple enough to understand and yet quite detailed. If you continue to work on it, it could be a cool scenario.

Ahem. They follow German doctrine, of course.

Yes of course.

It has elements of both. The Luchs - now phased out - probably was the ultimate Cold War era light reconnaissance vehicle (at the price of nearly that of a Leopard 1, actually). Built to operate up to seven days autonomously, up to 150km behind the front line, very silent, operating in pairs, usually moving at night and remaining in a hidden position at day, doing dismounted reconnaissance during that period.

Armament was relatively weak with the 20mm autocannon (same as the Marder), armor protection was, I think 14.5mm AP frontally and maybe 12.7mm from the sides. Amphibious (Luchs A1 and A2) until it received the thermal imager (Luchs A3), and with two drivers actually since it could drive forward and reverse at the same top speed (though not at the same time ).

Heavy reconnaissance was supposed to be done with Leopard 1, which was also planned to be used as the mailed fist in delaying operations (or as a brigade's armored reserve, depending on the situation) during the 1970s and 1980s. Fighting for intelligence was definitely an option, though not in the same dimensions as 3ACR which was almost a small division.

Cool information Ssnake. Didn't know that the Luchs was that capable. :shocked:

Typically there was one recce battalion per brigade with both light and heavy companies in it

Don't you mean 1 per division? Or is this in peacetime?

The brigades, I believe have a company of 8 Luchs as their primary recon element.

**All Hail the_List!!**

Hail Hail!

Proxies:

Scimitar = BMP-2 w/o ATGM (same chassis as BMP-1 Proxy)

Scorpion = BMP-1 w/o ATGM (only 73mm gun in the game)

Luchs = VEC or ASLAV

Yeah that's what I would also use. The problem is while I can make a Pizarro be a proxy for a Warrior, it is more difficult for BMPs since beside their not the original vehicle, they are not western either. It just doesn't feel right!

It is partly inspired by Kenneth Macksey's book First Clash.

Yes seems quite lightweight. Of course a force like this is more than suited for recon by observation.

Is that due to the demands of the modern battlefield? Has it always been like this, What about 1980s for example?

Hmmm..yes thanks. I would probably be looking at the UK-armour. See if they need an extra.

What about SB-Generals? Is that up? or still ongoing?

Well, It is not exactly a 1:3 odds.

The canadians are attacking with a company of 2 M113A1 platoons and 1 Leopard 1A5 Platoon (4 vehicles), CO, XO, FO, 1 M113 TUA Platoon (Substituted by M901 ITV)

The Motorized rifle battalion has a company in deliberate defence with minefields, pre plotted artillery and with a T-72B platoon and a BRDM-AT Platoon attached (equipped with AT-5).

This would then be a Forward Security Element for the Advance Guard.

When the company is attacked, the Advance Guard composed of the rest of the Motorized Rifle Battalion (-) and the Tank Company (-) will attack the Canadians who hopefully will have enough forces left to prevent this counterattack. Maybe a section of 2 Hinds will help the Soviets, maybe not.

Maybe a British squadron will help the Canadians, maybe not.

Actually what do the Australians use as recon? I know you have cavalry units and I would presume that is the recon units? Is it then a combo of ASLAV-25s and M1A1s?

Yes, and I must say, I find the British way quite interesting. Do the Germans use the british or american doctrine? Their units (Leopard/Luchs combo) looks quite powerful so I would believe it is the american.

I hope Schimitar, Scorpion or Luchs is on the "the_List"

Yes exactly, reconnaissance without firing a shot. It is probably difficult but would be quite interesting to do, especially at night.

Understandable, and with the recent updates that has been on the Hannover Map it is very usable as basis for a scenario. I have recently been working on a scenario that is taking place between Rinteln to Hameln. It depicts a battle between a Canadian combat team and a motorized rifle battalion in a deliberate defence. The restrictive nature of the valley and the river in that area makes it quite interesting although the canadians probably wouldn't have been deployed this high up north.

There are also other units based in the UK, US and Australia but they are in English and may not be suitable regarding the time they meet.

English isn't a barrier to me. Actually, some times I can express myself better in English than in danish.

What about UK-Armour? Gibsonm I believe you are a part of it?

Hello PincerDK,

do you speak german?

No, sorry my german is not that good.

Here the challenge is to get computer-controlled units to fire illumination if they have good reason to believe that the enemy is near (but before they are taking losses, actually).

A suggestion would be to include only illumination at this point and the ability to fire it. The ability of the enemy to detect you and then decide when to fire artillery isn't possible right now I believe? yes the AI can decide to fire HE strikes but it just seems a bit limited and if I can remember, it doesn't respond to priority TRP's or FASCAM TRP's.

Then the creator of the scenario could decide when to fire illumination based on his approximate idea of where each unit is and the enemy is. Like what is currently possible with HE/ICM/FASCAM strikes and conditions.

But yeah it would be nice for the AI to effectively decide when to fire HE and ICM and the ability to do it in a more intimidating way. Right now IMO, it is probably only good at making the player move his tanks quickly and never stand still. Which is a good lesson, remembering to keep the momentum. Else he will meet the death from above.

But glad to hear your working on the illumination. This would be a cool addition and would improve the artillery part.

Also given the progress that has been in the recent years, I am more than satisfied as a customer.

Actually is difficult to model the effects of a illumination round on a dark battlefield in Steel Beasts? How do you model the line of sight effects and all?

Another is a separation of Detection - Categorization - Identification. Right now, if a target has been detected, it is immediately identified.

Yes, this would definitely enhance the reconnaissance part and I'm definitely looking forward to when this will come to the game.

I believe it was you Ssnake who said that under a dark battlefield, the difference between a Luchs and a BTR80 isn't that big? I agree, this would make reconnaissance much more interesting.

But of course given the little time you have and all the wishes you have to fulfill, military and civil, I can understand if more important stuff will be taken into account.

Eventually we'll get there.

Sounds good to me.

Well I like the part that they fire when being fired upon. That seems reasonable.

But yeah closing and moving past enemy tanks without firing a shot seems awkward.

But then, the night setting and NVG's are pretty new to Steel Beasts so the stuff is probably still not refined yet.

Hello!

I'm looking for a Virtual unit that would accept a new member?

I'm looking for a unit that uses military terminology and tries to simulate a real unit. Something like the Campaigns Brave Rifles or Route Green.

My own real experience unfortunately is limited, reason that I have only been a conscript in the Danish army for 4 months.

But although what I lack in practicality, I make up for my theory. Been reading a lot about Cold War tactics and how a company/troop/squadron operates and also how a battalion/brigade/division operates. This also goes for modern scenarios.

I have played a lot of Steel Beasts solitaire, both PRO PE and the original, but my multiplayer is somewhat limited, only been participating in TGIF a few times.

Other than that I'm a nice guy and willing to learn and adapt. :biggrin:

Anyone wants a new addition to their unit?

Naah didn't think there would be one either.

But given the short distance and relative easy access to a big city, It kind of fit the definition of a gap.

Fulda Gap: close distance to Fulda city or Bad Hersfeld. Even then operational close distance to Frankfurt.

But yes interesting map and interesting question. New maps of Germany would be nice for Steel Beasts. The only problem is the huge amount of time it takes to make a proper terrain map.

I tried to use 1 Leopard 2A4 platoon and put it against a T-72M1 platoon at night.

The T-72s commanded by the AI advanced against the Leo's in assault, line with normal spacing as I would think would be realistic.

T-72's came almost into point blank range and in real time they would definitely have noticed the Leo's. But here they just moved past them like there was nothing there.

Only after I fired a shot against the T-72s did one of them notice it and started shooting at me killing the Leo I was in.

This also happened when I fired at them from longer range (1000ish?) then they fired at the muzzle flashes.

Maybe if the T-72s marched in a company line, same tactics (assault, line, normal spacing) with 10 T-72s against a Leopard 2A4 platoon? then at least some of the T-72s would notice the muzzle flashes and engage?

But I can see the problem with the T-72s night vision which I also tried to use in order to spot the Leopard 2A4s. It was....difficult to say the least!

Here are some pictures from Danube Front 85' by HPS Simulations.

I have used the excellent mod Bolt Out Of The Blue for these pictures and of course the invaluable Mapmod. Volcano's mod for some of the unit pictures.

That's probably what you are talking about Eisenschwein regarding the roads? There's only 2-3 main roads and 1 highway on the map to Kassel.

The German 2. Panzergrenadier Division (blue occopying Kassel) although outnumbered, would have no problem defending Kassel from these roads. The Soviet 20 Guards Motorized Rifle Division (red background with blue markings standing ready to move into West Germany) would have to be quite aggressive in order to get further into West Germany. It takes a lot of turns moving through that forest!

Although the distance is almost the same as that from the Border to Fulda or Bad Hersfeld.

Anyone heard of a Kassel Gap? :smile:

Kassel Run.rar