Stanny

I was meaning 1994 issue 125 mm smooth bore round. It is difficult to remember all designations. I tried popping smokes in order to block the missile guidance but with no avail - missile goes through the smoke. What is interesting is that Abrams SEP deals with these missiles without any significant problems, only some vehicles suffer minor damages. My idea with those tests is to find out which Western tanks can actually win a classic open battle against top tier Russian tanks, just pure face to face stand off, without crawling in ambushes, without hitting and running etc. This shows their actual ability. Will be testing Leopard 2E now.

Look are you that stupid that cannot see that there are three dead vehicles in the platoon? Putting you into my ignore list. Four CR2s, wedge wide spacing formation, advancing towards platoon of T-90S, fire at will ROE.

You must do something with CR2 model. It's obviously broken, three tanks dead at 4053 meters (tried lasing in both first and last return modes). Tank is absolutely weak in frontal combat, just cannot do anything with T-90S (I assume with other top tier Russian tanks too). SB Pro PE Version 3.011 from full installer in eSim downloads section, Windows XP 32 Bit

If you and your fellows cannot communicate in a normal polite way - without snobbery like "respect my authority here" we should end this discussion right now. Meanwhile I am the customer of the product who pays for the upgrades on a regular basis (as long as I have a free time to devote for the sim) and I will continue to require the quality for money - realistic tank models (not based on subjective literature descriptions but on real life counterparts instead), normal detailed clickable cockpits on all tanks (which is a black hole for Challenger II now), detailed driver places (which are also completely blank now). You may call me "trolling", "bitching", "bullying" etc. etc. - I don't care about every pompous idiot's opinion. :cool:

My complaints are pretty specific - Challenger II is one of my favorite tanks ever (rifled gun, Chobham armor and all other sweet things) and I would like to see it in simulation as realistic as possible without any nerf. Put 4 Challenger II against 4 T-90S on flat terrain at 3500 meters and see how many tanks will remain undamaged in CR2 platoon.

Unfounded criticism? And what else would you expect when top Russian tanks are being modeled as "super weapons" even without having proper access to the original army units to learn about actual capabilities? What Russian tanks were tested before adding to the Steel Beasts line? Only the downgraded export T-72M1 version? So how can you precisely model T-80 and T-90 for example, when you don't have even the proper technical documentation? Sorry guys, if you take $40 for every major upgrade customers expect quality, attention to details and technical accuracy.

What do you expect me to say? Cheers and gratitudes all the time? Yes, the SB is the best tank sim on the market but it is unfinished and many aspects are based on assumptions rather than on exact modelling. What T-90 rounds were you testing in reality if you depict those tanks to start firing at ~3000 meters accurately (according to LRF data). You are one of the designers who sells the product, so if customers pay money for this they would expect simulation that is at least accurate. If you are having troubles accessing Russian tanks for modelling go to Ukraine, Kharkiv tank plant that manufactures various advanced versions of T-64 and T-80, they will show you the tanks, drive to the tank range, and you will be able to represent those vehicles accurately. Not that difficult. Moreover they would show you actual tanks damaged in combat with various munitions so that you can model the damage characteristics.

I am not talking about the flank attacks, ambushes and other tricks as they do not show anything in real comparison between two different tank models. They show only the player's experience. If you want to compare Challenger II with any other tank properly put them all on flat terrain at approx. 7000 meters distance, Reds are guarding, Blues have to advance at top speed, engage and destroy them face-to-face. Only such test shows the actual capability of the vehicles modeled in game. You get the correct comparison of frontal armor, LRF accuracy and gun stabilization, differences in round ballistics.

I will do the third face to face test and post AAR here. First time Challenger II lost completely without any damage to T-90S platoon, second time it barely won - the last remaining tank got a fuel leak and was firing in a standing position until got all T-90S destroyed. I am creating classic face to face battles when Reds take guarding position and Blues have to advance towards them and destroy. All tanks are being loaded only with sabot rounds in maximum quantity. Last night I was doing a second test for the M1A2 Abrams SEP - their platoon just wiped T-90S platoon off, opened fire from 4100 meters with M829A3, two T-90S had their turrets blown away almost immediately, second two got their tracks broken, guns damaged and finished slightly afterwards. Only one blue tank was damaged - LRF, GPS etc. So basically what I am trying to say is that at least in SB the Challenger II is helluva weaker than M1A2 Abrams SEP, either it is underpowered or top Russian tanks are overpowered.

The one who is bitching and whining is obviously you at this point. As concerning me I was trying to take developer's attention that it is not necessary to make an "uber-waffe" out of Russian tanks simulating that they can penetrate the frontal section of the Challenger II turret from 3500 meter range (killing crew inside) with BM19 sabot because this is unrealistic, this won't happen in real combat due to the specifications of the round and the turret armoring of the Challenger II. The only way they can inflict damage at this range is launching tank guided missile through the barrel of the main gun, for example 9M112 "Kobra".

Have a look at this armor scheme for Challenger II in SB: How T-90S can penetrate the turret at 3500 meters with BM19 sabot while the penetration of this round is just 650 mm at 2000 meters at 0 degrees impact?

T-90S is nothing more than modified T-72 with upgraded reactive armor, some electronic warfare systems like "Arena" and Challenger II together with old M1A2 has shown superiority over T-72 platform in Operation Desert Storm ground offensive. Even the 125 mm sabot rounds depicted in SB Pro PE are of old 1994 year version. So why this tank should be such a "super-weapon" that kills 3 out of 4 Challengers II at 3500 meters almost instantly while looses completely to M1A2 Abrams SEP in the same conditions (I have made two scenarios 4 x 4 frontal engagements M1A2 Abrams SEP Vs T-90S and both times all T-90S were blown from 4000 meters). I mean something is wrong that Challenger II is so inferior to M1A2 Abrams SEP.

The frontal armor is just unrealistically weak, taking into account it is Chobham. 3 out of 4 tanks die almost immediately in face to face encounter with four T-90S, in the same conditions, terrain, visibility etc. LRF has difficulties in reading the correct distance both for player controlled vehicle and for AI tanks, while T-90S is insanely accurate at 3500 meters. T-90S is just a modified T-72 with extensive upgrades, but it no way can be so powerful against Challenger II. So the problems are the following: frontal armor is weak, LRF needs tweaking for better distance acquisition at longer ranges (like it is implemented in M1A2), something is wrong with L27 sabot rounds.

Challenger II is underpowered in 3.011 version, I think there is something wrong with ammunition ballistics and penetration. With L27 sabot rounds it barely wins with huge losses and damages a 4 X 4 face to face battle against T-90S or even looses in a 3500 m range duel. Basically only one tank survives out of a 4 vehicle platoon the battle against the equal platoon of T-90S. Meanwhile M1A2 Abrams SEP just wipes all T-90S squadron off with M829A3 sabot rounds at 4100 meter distance in the same terrain and conditions. I mean something is wrong either with Challenger II cannon modelling (laser range finder is quite difficult to operate at 3500+ meter distances both in first and last return modes) or with L27 ammunition ballistics and penetration, I don't think that this tank (that has Chobham armor) should be so weak compared to T-90S. 3 Challenger II out of a four tank platoon die almost immediately at 3500 meter face to face encounter with T-90s. Please pay attention at Challenger II model in the next update. It should not be that weak against T-90S.

Where do you see the political agenda here when I am talking about actual events that are taking place? I see you are from Germany, is it the official position of German moderators on these boards - speak only good about Russia and Mr. Putin or speak nothing about them? Germany always backs Russia on international arena due to their cheap gas interests but I could never imagine that this has spread to the level of the ordinary people communication. Why do you behave like this shutting up opposite opinions? You are trying to block this discussion in order not to touch the "Russian theme" as far as I understand while this topic is currently very sensitive to many ethnic Ukrainians who are actually very worried about what is happening in this country.

I don't understand what is there against the forum rules when I would like to tell the truth about the events going on in Ukraine, in fact the tragedy people of this country is suffering? Or maybe this is not the Steel Beasts forums but Gazprom forum or something like that? Why do you behave like this? Why do you allow only the official Russian position to be depicted here (for example, no words about Putin or something like this), do you think you'll get much sales of SB product after such attitude on 40 million Ukrainian market? Why do the Russian interests are being lobbied to such extent that ethnic Ukrainians like me should sit with their mouth shut up? Please do the appropriate conclusions, if you set a platform for discussions here - let everyone share his opinion and bring his known facts. Moreover that the facts are documented, videos, photographs etc. I am not telling just the words here. Ukrainian portal in English about the events: http://en.censor.net.ua/

As far as the nearby thread about the MH17 got locked, I am starting this one in order to enlighten the western audience about the Russian military aggression that is going on in Ukraine since March 2014. I perfectly understand that some countries in Europe would prefer to keep a "soft" position towards the events that lead to the MH17 tragedy, primarily due to their energetic dependence on Russian gas prices (which are set on political basis very often), but nevertheless let's face it - it is a Russian military aggression going on in Ukraine, Russian special forces conduct "denied" warfare organizing local insurgent groups, training them to execute terrorist attacks. Let me tell you how these events started. In April 2014 infiltrated operatives from Russian special forces started taking over government buildings, giving the control to the local gangs after this, distributing seized weapons from police stations and military units. How it was? Here is the example of assaults on police stations in the city of Kramatorsk and Slaviansk: The scheme was pretty standard everywhere, dropping down Ukrainian flags, rising Russian flags, gathering a bunch of unknown men in the City Council, most of whom were Russian citizen in fact without any ties to Ukraine and then proclaiming "Independent People's Republic" - "Donetsk People Republic" and "Luhansk People Republic". First steps towards the local populace were to cut off all Ukrainian mass media sources, reconnect all TV masts and cable operators to broadcast Russian TV channels only. Then the rallies and demonstrations were organized, where the participants were partially "paid" people, who were paid for participation, others were just local "unsocials" (drunken people, drug addicted, criminals, etc). The government of Ukraine decided to send the security service special unit "Alfa" in, which was ambushed, lost several people, and the seized cities became totally blocked. Suprisingly there were weapon caches in the seized cities to arm the force of up to 10000 men - AKs, SVD sniper rifles, RPK and PKM machine guns, RPG-26 and RPG-7. After that the decision was taken to launch a full scale military operation to restore law and order in the seized cities, but terrorists have taken the other step: specially prepared groups of locals were blocking armored vehicles, imitating "public rage" in order not to let the troops in while everything could still be solved without massive blood: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJoSikTpxrE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_WaUYVdhsI Blocking of Ukrainian airborne armored column in the city, note armed gunmen in black balaclavas walking behind civilians (these are the Russian spetsnaz): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtcjpZD-TVU Basically, Russian special forces were using the following tactics, "civilians" are going forward blocking Ukrainian military and Russian operatives are behind them. In the result of this several Ukrainian airborne troops died because of sniper fire and underbarrel grenade launcher shots that were fired from the backs of civilians. Several armored vehicles, BMD-1, BMD-2 and 2S9 "Nona" self-propelled mortar were also seized by Russians from Ukrainians under civilian cover. Captured Ukrainian armor, note Russian flags on the vehicles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NyudoQ6pYw Since 7 armored vehicles and self-propelled 2S9 "Nona" mortar were seized and Ukrainian government troops were very often fired upon and shelled from the captured 2S9 "Nona" the full scale military operation was launched to regain the control over the cities. I would like to underline that pro-russian separatists launched a hunt on the pro-ukrainian population, some were killed, some were taken hostages (and used as human shields afterwards), everybody who were expressing pro-Ukrainian opinion was persecuted. Images of tortured and killed Ukrainians in the city of Slaviansk (members of local city council): http://www.ostro.org/files_dn/2014/04/24/u1.jpg The border between Russia and Ukraine is unmarked, there are no surveillance cameras and other technical protection features there, so the huge amounts of weapons started flowing in since May. There were "Igla" manpads, "Fagot" and "Metis" ATGMs, heavy machineguns. Ukrainian military managed to cope with this and eventually after three months of intensive battles regained the control over some seized cities forcing terrorists to withdraw and partially destroying them, and after that heavy gear started going in: BM-21 "Grad" multiple rocket launchers, T-64 tanks, 2S1 self-propelled artillery, "BUK" SAM systems. Russian tanks near the area where the B777 was shot down: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uqp6MATkFw Russian tanks and 2S1 self-propelled artillery (note Russian flag on):

The initial spirit of the thread is that there is a 5000 - 10000 gunmen gang armed to the teeth with most advanced weaponry sitting in the middle of Europe and being actively supported by Russia - each night convoys go into Ukraine across the border with tanks, self-propelled artillery, multiple rocket launchers. This gang is officially denied to have any ties with Russia. My condolences to all the people who lost lives in this nightmare (Ukraine has been going through it during the past few months), but there was no way around - Russia supplied "Buk" systems for the terrorists in order to let them engage planes flying above 4000 meters, in case of MH17 they were thinking that it is something like IL-76 transport flying to parachute drop supplies for the ground troops. They were firing at everything they could reach during the last few months (Ukraine lost 13 fixed wing and rotor aircraft). Ukrainians are experiencing such nightmare every week, for example recently Ukrainian military camp was barraged by BM-21 "Grad" multiple rocket launcher, up to 50 people were blown to pieces, judge yourself is it a war or terrorism of grand scale, some pictures: And this is the wreck of IL-76 destroyed by manpad during landing some time ago (50 paratroopers died and the crew): Another picture from the same region. Terrorist is posing in front of the destroyed BTR commenting in his social network page that there are "10 Ukrainians burning inside, legs can be seen": This is what Ukraine is facing currently. These people don't understand negotiations, they understand only precise and very deadly military power.

Ukraine is in desperate need of effective air support in that area. Helicopters and attack jets can't get there because of insane amount of manpads Russians have shipped to this area, while bombing from higher altitudes isn't precise - Ukrainian Su-24s and Su-25s do not have FLIRs, targeting pods and other sophisticated hardware, they can only drop unguided bombs and fire FFARs. Pilots are also learning so to say "on the move" because army was terribly financed in the recent years. The only military protection for Investigation Teams would be sending the regular Ukrainian mechanized - armored regiment or brigade to the crash site which will have to make it's way with a battle, I mean tanks would have to crash the rebel check points, rebel positions would be barraged with artillery fire. So the only way Ukrainian government authorities can reach this area is battle through in a combat. NATO would help a lot if those F-16s from Aviano and Spandahlem that are now stationed in Poland do some night air raids on rebel tanks, BM-21 multiple missile launchers, rebel artillery in that area. Then the Ukrainians would go through in a several days, otherwise it would be a rather difficult operation taking into consideration that all air support Ukrainians have is 30 Su-24s (which cannot deploy guided munitions for unknown reasons) and 30 Su-25s, that all cannot work at night and should operate at high altitudes because of manpads all the time (air support is much less effective because of this). Terrorist force that is guarding the area around the crash site is up to 1000 gunmen, several dozen T-64 tanks, BM-21 multiple missile launchers, BMP-2, towed ZPU and ZU-23-2 AA artillery. The force is quite substantial, therefore there is a problem getting there.

Ukrainian POWs (Security Service operatives) interviewed by Russian TV: Airborne troops captured by Russian Cossack mercenaries: Ukrainian POWs interviewed after armored column ambush: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuBpDNnGqLw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Bl5st69PQ0 Most Ukrainian soldiers that kept POWs are usually being interviewed stripped in the presence of Russian media. After that all this is shown on Russian TV channels. I would also like to add about the area where B777 was shot down. Shezhnoye - Torez area is by far the strongest terrorist stronghold in the region, as far as you know three months the Ukrainian Army was quite busy near the city of Slovyansk and during that time terrorists were dragging everything into Snezhnoye - Torez: there are ZU-23-2s on the rooftops of block apartment buildings, NSV 12.7 mm heavy machine guns, tanks, APCs, everything. I have spoken with many locals on other forums and they told me this. Mercenaries there are from Russian spetsnaz and paratroopers and ending with Chechen fighters. Very dangerous place. Rooftop of apartment building in this area:

I am following the development of this conflict since the very beginning and must warn all my European colleagues, especially from Central and Eastern Europe - either NATO reacts as it did in Bosnia in 1995 or the situation is going to get much worse. Putin's ambitions are not ending in Ukraine, but reaching such countries as Baltic States, Poland or Hungary. He wants to re-create some sort of Warsaw Pact or influence zone, and for these purposes he uses so called "denied war", when he's troops and weaponry are de facto on the ground but he denies this. What he does now is transferring all the weaponry Russia seized in Crimea through the gaps in the border, there were: up to 180 tanks T-64B and T-64BV, several dozens 2S1 self propelled artillery vehicles, BM-21 multi missile launchers, "BUK" and S-300 SAMs. All this weaponry is quite enough for three or four Yugoslavia wars, so either NATO destroys this "denied and non-existent" hardware or it will continue to kill people. For example, the amount of MANPADs in the area of conflict is insane, I mean each helicopter is usually fired upon by a salvo of 2 or 3 "Igla" manpads, those rebels even don't bother to use RPGs against "soft" targets like BMP or BTR - "Fagot" and "Metis" ATGMs are fired all the time. Some videos of what is happening there, that might be interesting. T-64B tank without reactive armor that suffered a frontal "Fagot" ATGM hit and got the turret rotation mechanism blocked, all optics and gun heat shield broken by sniper fire, RPG-26 hit the engine section: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPiigJfjPjY "Igla-1" manpad pursues Mi-24 Hind (black trail on 0:25): "Igla-S" attack against An-30 reconaissance plane over Slovyansk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FNoSFrCwds Armored convoy got ambushed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itu5g0V2dZI ATGM launches at Ukrainian armored units: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2IKsovaI9U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jE7wrNg1rY Damaged Ukrainian T-64BV tank, again turret rotation mechanism got blocked after RPG/ATGM hit, tank commander committed suicide, blown himself with grenade to avoid capture by rebels: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MEjwv7t8JA Ukrainian artillery working: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u1i6h7LJGM Russian BM-21 multiple rocket launcher fires into Ukrainian territory (Russians deny this, say that this launcher is not theirs):

There has been already an explanation about the IFF feature of the Ukrainian "BUK" SAM sites. The Ukrainian "BUK" could not shoot the Boeing down because as soon as any civilian airplane enters international transit air space over the country the ATC gives him the "Friendly" designation and all air defense sites automatically get all firing systems blocked on this aircraft. Missiles simply won't launch. So, there are two versions of who actually downed an aircraft and both lead to Russian separatists: 1) "BUK" system seized in one of the Donetsk air defense units, but Ukrainian officials say that only non-operational systems were left there, but they had a working Ukrainian IFF as well, so this version is less likely; 2) Transfer of several "BUK" systems previously seized by Russia during Crimea annexation with IFF removed, through Kerch straight to mainland Russia and then through the gap in the border into Ukraine; This version is more likely; Videos: 1) "BUK M1" riding near the tragedy area in Snezhnoye, a little before the plane crash: 2) "BUK M1" being towed towards Russian border after the plane crash, one missile is missing on the launch rails: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE Seriously, Ukraine should not be blamed for this accident, this is a pure Russian fault, Ukrainians realized that terrorists possess SAM weapons being able to hit target beyond 4000 m altitudes only several days ago (on July 14th) when this An-26 delivering supplies was shot down near Russian border (altitude 6200 meters): First version was that Russian Su-27 fired a missile across the border but now it comes clear that it was one of the same "BUK" launchers that downed B777. My personal opinion, NATO could launch a SEAD operation along the Russian border to destroy the "denied" SAMs (which are not Russian as they always claim), there are F-16 from Spandahlem stationed now in Lask, Poland that specialize in SEAD duties, there are F-16 from Aviano there too, with the help of NATO air power this conflict will be over soon as Ukrainian army is quite capable to finish the ground war on their own. Problem is only the guided precise air strikes (Ukrainian jets cannot conduct night missions, they have no NV, no FLIR, no targeting pods etc.).

Yes, Shift + Spacebar combination is working. Thanks for the tip. I was a bit confused as I had been going through the Challenger II tutorials a couple of days ago and there you can fire in MANUAL mode with Spacebar key only.

Hello, The gun on M1A2 SEP is not firing in MANUAL mode (rose light on, GAS sight turned on, sabot round loaded). Gun is not firing when you hit the spacebar key. This happens in tutorial MANUAL mode mission, don't know about other scenarios. Is this a bug or something? Version 3.011 x86 (downloadable unlimited upgrade).

Do you guys plan making the clickable interior for Challenger II, like you did this with M1A2 Abrams SEP? May we hope to still see it in XP version of the simulation given the fact that you're planning to transfer to 64 bit systems? It would be great if you don't forget your old fans who are still playing on Windows XP.