Will2

Thank's for this Gibsonm. I'm wondering now if I, somehow, conflated this chosen ammunition restriction of the Australian Leopard AS1 with the Canadian C1? Isn't memory and assumption a funny thing.

A very belated thanks for this Panzer Leader. Very interesting that the Australian Armed Forces didn't get to update the Leopard AS1's APDS to APFSDS. Perhaps, projected conflicts didn't include opposing tank types of a superior armoured nature? Could it be it was deemed that the existing APDS round was sufficient for all concerns.

Please, do not die suddenly!

It sounds like a very sophisticated competition towards its close, in Europe, in 1989. Thanks for this.

Aha, I see your point. So much for taking the word of library found commercially published sources. Have you any info on how those points are scored at the CAT shoot competition?

That's a very good point when it comes to training practice and ageing war stock use. The gent I referred to earlier, an officer at the time, listed his European service time as 81 to 84, a little before your commentary on Leopard C1 L7 105mm ammunition options (1985). It may have been that the war stock advanced rounds he was referring to were new? Too new to be just expended? I'm even wondering if they may have been other Nato members rounds and not strictly Canadian forces issue. I think you also mentioned this above as being an option? But, I am guessing and theorizing very much here. I have noticed that Canada currently produces both 105 and 120mm tank gun rounds at a General Dynamics Canada Quebec plant. It would seem reasonable the manufacture would include stocks for the Canadian Armed Forces and not just overseas sales. I'm wondering how long that has been the case? In other words, was Canada producing its own tank gun ammunition in the 80's? Or, where they relying on foreign manufacture? If Canada was producing its own tank round supplies we could also ask when they first produced APFSDS? Or, even, when Leopard C1s were first kitted out with APFSDS? I would appreciate any detail you feel you have the time to root out, on this or any other related topic. However, please proceed at your leisure. And the above may prove a long list, do not feel obliged. There is one other point worth mentioning. I have a tome out from the library entitled The Royal Canadian Armoured Corp - An Illustrated History. In there it mentioned that C1s, early on, did suffer when heat expansion of the turret threw off the linkage between the gun and sight. Apparently the CAT shoot of 1979 saw C1s registering no hits. Perhaps this incident some how got combined with or conflated into my initial question?

A little tid bit of info that came up in recent reading was that the Canadian C1 had the L7A1 and not the A3 version of the 105mm. Even the upgrade to the C2, with its 1A5 turret, had the guns swapped out so the L7A1 was retained. Any info on the AS1s and its particulars vis a vis ammo, or whatever, would be appreciated.

Ok, thanks 12Alfa. Then it must be I have an erroneous memory or one misconstrued over time. On another forum a gent who served in the RCD early 80's commented positively and in line what you have stated in this thread. Though a general comment, he noted seeing 'war stocks only' of some advanced APDS round he guardedly figures could have been APFSDS. He commented that these were never fired in training. A follow on question would be, are any of these type of rounds (APDS or APFSDS) ever fired in training as opposed to, say, TPDS/T?

Hello people, I am a new member just, so salutations. I came across this fascinating thread when trying to find an answer to a Canadian Leopard C1 question. Some years back I recall reading (well, I think I do) that the C1 version of the Leopard 1 couldn't effectively fire APFSDS ammunition. I see by this thread that circa 1985 it carried M111 equivalent APFSDS. My vague memory has me further recalling that, though carried, the C1 struggled with accuracy when firing APFSDS, and that a solution was only found by the 1A5 turret substitution and upgrade to the C2 version. I know that this thread is well nigh 4 years old now, but if anyone out there is listening and has any willing insight I would appreciate any commentary, be that it confirm the above or the fact that I have an overactive imagination and none of it is true. Thank's in advance.