War - Russian tanks entering Georgia

[RogueSnake79]

There seems to be a minor difference in how Russia defines "peace keeping" vs. say Sweden...

Ah, isn't it great to have the old "Evil Empire" back. Perhaps they were jealous that America had been voted the new.

[Zipuli]

Yeah, gotta love it. Somehow makes me glad there's no oil in Finland Though that pipeline to Germany makes me wonder...

Zip

[Ralphie]

Man, guys, this damn war quit being funny when the Russkies opened the second front and invaded Georgia proper.

They could have kicked the Georgians out of South Ossetia, claimed they were protecting Russian citizens and peacekeepers, and hung a "Mission Accomplished" banner. They could have even played up the Georgians to be the bad guys. Case closed--let's watch the Olympics.

But they go and invade Georgia. If the Russkies go into the captial and effect regieme change, that precipatates a violent shitstorm. What the hell do we do then? Kick them out of the G8? Then what? Get into a shooting war with Russia? Or thank a small country for helping us in Iraq by letting them get mauled by the Russian bear?

Maybe I'm just a Nervous Nellie, but I don't like this. Nobody is using any common sense in this thing.

[sabot_ready]

We already want to kick them out of the G8.

[TankHunter]

If they change the government, one option (assuming that we are willing to increase the chaos there) would be to fund an insurgency there. Let the locals do the fighting, and give them money and equipment (assuming the Turks would be up for helping us with that). Though one major downside with that would be the fact that the Georgian insurgency would likely engage in infrastructural disruption. I.E., start setting off nice little bombs on the two major oil pipelines going through the country. And well, they could really screw things up by popping the junction south of T'bilisi or the line leading to the junction. If that happens then all that nice black gold going from Baku would be a bit rare...

[dejawolf]

hum..

georgia says gori has been invaded. russia denies it, and reuters reports gori is quiet:

http://www.reuters.com/article/russia/idUSLB16164520080811

and here's a timeline of the events that lead up to this mess:

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Georgia/idUSHO05105720080811

[Kingtiger]

But you have to say that russian peace keeping seems to be more effective then swedish peace keeping

although swedish ones isnt that violent, follows ROE and dont invade countrys...

Hell russian peace keeping (enforcing) rules!

[Sim]

Man, guys, this damn war quit being funny when the Russkies opened the second front and invaded Georgia proper.

They could have kicked the Georgians out of South Ossetia, claimed they were protecting Russian citizens and peacekeepers, and hung a "Mission Accomplished" banner. They could have even played up the Georgians to be the bad guys. Case closed--let's watch the Olympics.

They did that...and then Georgian's arty started working again on peacekeeping force and civilian cities...so what else should Russia do?

Oh, and France / Russian peace proposal is not accepted by Georgia.....they sure don't want peace when lap-dog keep saying to news sources that they will fight until last drop of blood.

[GH_Lieste]

Maps of the region can be obtained from:

http://maps.poehali.org

The Ossetian Capital at 50k:

http://maps.poehali.org/en/formatted/050k--k38-064-2.html?type=050k&zoom=6

[Hedgehog]

Well Ubisoft was bang on the money with Ghost Recon.

Only no Ghosts running round blowing Russian shit up.

If Russia this keeps up one wonders how long before NATO and Russian tanks cross swords?

And well all know which ones are superior in battle.......

Lieste those DTED maps?

[GH_Lieste]

No, just Russian Topos.

I've applied some hill shading* to the Ossetian Tiles, there are some differences in style between adjacent sheets, but it should be readable still.

This is the central corridor, with the Russian border trace along the ridgeline to the north, and the South Ossetian Capital (and border) near the centre.

Warning: This is a Biiiiiig image, at 50px per km.

*Sun is at 65 degrees elevation, from 315 azimuth

SouthOssetia_2lq.rar

Edited August 12, 2008 by GH_Lieste
Added 'thumbnail' image

[Mogwa]

I havent seen any T-80s in the footage Ive seen. (certainly not an all inclusive list of footage) I could be wrong. In fact the whole thing looks a look like a military antique car show to me, when it comes to armored vehicles. Ive seen BMP-1s and M-1974s and T-72s. I think I saw T-55s for heavens sake. Maybe the vaunted T-80 like the Leo is more of a parade vehicle.

Just sayin,

Mog

[Volcano]

I guess we need some South Ossetia maps for SB. Hypothetical, South Ossetia purchases M1A1 type stuff. I am sure they will look to buy western arms after this, provided that they are still a sovereign country.

[GH_Lieste]

It would make more sense if Georgia continues to move towards NATO and receives western replacements for the equipment it has just lost... with more training and assistance from US 'advisors' things could get real messy, real fast the next time.

[Homer]

Here's a list of the Georgian OOB and equipment:

* 1st Infantry Brigade, located in Gori

* 2nd Infantry Brigade, located in Senaki

* 3rd Infantry Brigade, located in Kutaisi

* 4th Infantry Brigade, located in Vaziani

* 5th Infantry Brigade, located in Khelvachauri (temporary distribution place) and Khoni

* Artillery Brigade, located in Gori and Khoni

* Military Engineering Brigade, located in Gori

* Separate Light Infantry Battalion, located in Adlia

* Separate Tank Battalion, located in Gori

* Separate Air Defense Battalion, located in Kutaisi

* Communication Battalion, located in Saguramo

* Technical Reconnaissance Battalion, located in Kobuleti

* Military Police Battalion, located in Tbilisi

* Medical Battalion, located in Saguramo

The strength of Land Forces is 26,739 from which 2,215 are officers, 24,508 NCOs (contracting) and 16 civilians.

Main battle tanks

* T-72sim1 - 82[5]

* T-55 - 110

AIFVs/APCs

* BMP-1 - 80 units

* BMP-2 - 120 units

* BTR-80 - 75 units

* MT-LB - 64 units

* Otokar Cobra - 100

Towed artillery

* 2A36 Giatsint-B - 12 units

* 2A65 Msta-B - 18 units

* 2A18 (D-30) - 120 units

Self-propelled artillery

* 2S7 Pion - 12 units

* 2S19 Msta-S - 3 units

* 2S3 Akatsiya - 13 units

* VZ 77 Dana - 24 units

Multiple Launch Rocket Systems

* RM-70 - 48 units

* BM-21 Grad - 120 units

* LAR-160- 15 units

Mortars

* 2B11 120 mm - 240 units

* M-38/43 120 mm - 365 units

* M75 120 mm – 250 units

Assault Rifles and Carbines

* M4A3 (Colt RO977) - 4,000[6]

* G36K - Georgian Ministry of Internal Affairs special units

* AKM/AKMS

* AK-74

* AKS-74U

* Tavor TAR-21 - Georgian Ministry of Internal Affairs special units

Machine Guns

* PK machine gun

* NSV

* Mk 19 Mod 3

Sniper Rifles

* SVD

* Remington 700

* Zastava M93 Black Arrow - 12.7mm heavy, bolt-action sniper rifle

* Barrett M82A1 - 20 purchased in Israel[7]

Aircraft

* 8 Su-25KM

* 5 Su-25UB

* 4 Su-25

* 6 L-39

Helicopters

* 1 Mi-35

* 3 Mi-24P

* 4 Mi-24V

* 18 Mi-8

* 8 UH-1H

* 7 Mi-2

Air Defence

* ?? SA-11 Gadfly (unconfirmed)

* ?? SA-3 Goa

* ?? SA-5 Gammon

* 18 SA-8

* ?? SA-7A/B Grail

* ?? SA-14 Gremlin

* ?? SA-16 Gimlet

* 35 ZSU-23-4

* 15 S-60

* 40 MT-LB with towed ZU-23-2

* 30 Grom man-portable air-defense system missile launchers with 100 missiles[8]

[NEpi]

since Georgia has a small military force compared to its most agressive neighbour, they should concentrate on almost-stationary defenssive capabilities to bleed the russians should they try it again rather than manuever assets, since they will not win against Russia by out-manuevering them. It's doubly so, because the Georgian force has air inferiority, and is a naval gnat compared to Russia. they need a strong fortified infantry force on the borders, significantly better anti-aircraft and anti-ship capabilities, and a small manuevering force, to fill gaps when the front line is breached and to deter Armenia and other smaller neighbours against an attack.

can they afford such a strategy?

will the western powers help with that?

[Reaper]

IMHO a stationary defensive posture against another Russian “Four-F” (“find-em, fix-em, fight-em, and finish-em”) onslaught would be suicide for the Georgians. With their severely diminished ordnance and personnel, the Georgians can ill afford to stand toe-to-toe against the 500 pound enraged gorilla to their north. They would reap a lot more benefit with a more mobile defensive posture (“shoot-n-scoot” for arty) using terrain, weather, diversion and ambush to bleed/delay the Russian forces as much as possible. Also, with their more advanced recon ability, the Russians would easily be able to identify/eliminate any Georgian static defensive positions.

Don't be where they expect you to be and don't fight fair!

Without direct/immediate outside assistance (political/logistical), the Georgians are going to lose Saakashvili's gamble.

[dejawolf]

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/Prin...ory_id=11670692

gives a better background of the conflict, than whatever we can sample from the media.

its a three-way clusterfuck.

[GH_Lieste]

You've got to admire the Georgian capability for defining its own truth

Georgian Naval units are based at Poti, and the Georgian missile boats have sortied twice.

Russian units have bombed, shelled and briefly occupied the port facilities, and sank the Tbilisi Missile boat alongside.

Georgians claim that the aggression against Poti is indefensible as 'Poti is far outside the area of conflict' and 'Poti is a purely civilian town with no military facilities'.

Since when are missile/gunboats civilian?

[NEpi]

IMHO a stationary defensive posture against another Russian “Four-F” (“find-em, fix-em, fight-em, and finish-em”) onslaught would be suicide for the Georgians.

EVERYTHING would be suicide for the Georgians.

With their severely diminished ordnance and personnel, the Georgians can ill afford to stand toe-to-toe against the 500 pound enraged gorilla to their north.

The trick is how to bleed the gorilla, with severe air inferiority and virtually no naval force.

If it will be slightly less easy for the gorilla, it might lose heart.

They would reap a lot more benefit with a more mobile defensive posture (“shoot-n-scoot” for arty) using terrain, weather, diversion and ambush to bleed/delay the Russian forces as much as possible.

such tactic needs:

1. ability to manuever unseen. with superiority of 1.5k aircraft against you, this might not happen.

2. having where to scoot to (i.e. strategic depth). when your capital is 100 miles from the border, it's a problem. it might have worked if condition 1 was met, and if your enemy doesn't have ten times as many troops to throw at you, and completely flood you.

Don't be where they expect you to be and don't fight fair!

I think not trying to stop them cold is not fighting fair. giving them air superiority and then staying underground is not fighting fair. relying on armored vehicles when you have no air defense is fighting dumb.

[JamesT73J]

There's a lot of burning armour in the film and photos emerging from the conflict, and yet again evidence that Russian SAM & AA equipment is capable - four Russian aircraft downed, including a TU-22?

I wonder what kind of engagements took out the armour, specifically if there were any Tank v tank battles.

[rump]

I thought it was Georgia using T-55's, but today I saw footage of Russian troops blocking access to the city of Gori with, among other vehicles, a T-55!

I understand that they don't use their best equipment, that would look a bit too much prepared, but why T-55's? Or was I shown the wrong footage?

-Rump

[TankHunter]

In my opinion the only solution for Georgia at this point to a long occupation (assuming that Russia goes for that) would be a long and bloody insurgency. Had Georgia before the war sent out special operations troops in civilian clothing into Russia with the intent of attacking energy related infrastructure if Russia attacked, and had the Georgians targeted the Roki tunnel before attacking then the situation may have improved for them.

Russia then would have to ask if the financial costs due to disruptions to their economy would be a good price to pay for a weakened Georgia on their southern frontier. They would have also been unable to move as many assets into Georgia in as short of a time too. Thus giving Georgia a chance to gain control of the area.

[Hedgehog]

Yeah I'm surprised that the Georgians didn't hit that tunnel.

Seemed obvious to me...

[rump]

Roki tunnel Latitude:42°35'38.38"N Longitude: 44° 6'50.18"E

Or use link for .kmz file to be used in Google Earth: http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/download.php?Number=1216910

Regards,

-Rump