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SB Pro PE 4.0 - Discussion thread


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16 hours ago, Tango29 said:

Well, in real life and about 95% of the time, crew commanders stay down in the hatch/turret. Two reasons: first, it helps to keep you from being shot or hit by artillery; and second, if the vehicle rolls over for whatever reason (and it happens, usually without warning) it helps to keep you inside the vehicle and not crushed to death as it rolls over you. Not a pleasant way to die, especially if it is mostly preventable. 

 

Thanks Tango! B| Yes I understand 100% the reason of protection. Just want to know when the sim choose to put the commander in that "Red Square Parade"  position or the other "more inside" the cockpit. I know that when the bullets starts to fly he always goes inside the cockpit (and that is super fine!) ^_^

Edited by Vikingo
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7 hours ago, Ssnake said:

 

I suspect that it has more to do with the "post penetration" vulnerability than with the armor resistance as such. We have certain internal rules in place to make the results somewhat comparable among different vehicles of a similar class - which may, in this specific case, yield an extraordinary (und undeserved) survivability.

That sounds logical, because the sabot rounds seem to go trough the vehicle when viewed in AAR, however with minimal damage.

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5 hours ago, Tango29 said:

Well, in real life and about 95% of the time, crew commanders stay down in the hatch/turret. Two reasons: first, it helps to keep you from being shot or hit by artillery; and second, if the vehicle rolls over for whatever reason (and it happens, usually without warning) it helps to keep you inside the vehicle and not crushed to death as it rolls over you. Not a pleasant way to die, especially if it is mostly preventable. 

Sorry to say, but that is completely nonsense.

As a Tank Cdr or a Plt Ldr you have to do several "Visual Thinks" parallel and every Second at the Battlefield:

- What Terrain in Front and Behind my Tank?

- Where is my next BP in Front or Behind my Tank?

- Where are my Wingman, Plt Ldr, CO, attached Elements?

- Where are the other Platoons?

- Where is the Eny and what can he do?

- Where is my Wingman shooting at and is he hitting the Target?

- Where is my Tank shooting at?

- Can I hear something?

- Is my Tank in a good Shape?

- What is the best Formation for my Plt?

- Do I have to help a Wingman with firing on a Target

aso, aso, aso....

 

The likelihood of flipping a Tank around is nearly 0%, to be hit by Arty Shrapnel or a sharpshooter is under 10%, if you do right.

That does not mean to stand in the Turret (or as I said to my young Comrades: Don´t stand as Rommel in Africa), but to look outside with open Hatches, it´s the only way to become a situational Awareness!

 

The only 2 Options to close the Hatch is in direct Arty Fire and in Urban Areas (what is not Tankers Land).

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Depend of your SOP with the vehicle:

... but with Leclerc we are inside and buttonned almost all the time.

 

Remarkable how doctrines can be different , see above Froggy vs Eischenschwein:

 

"The only 2 Options to close the Hatch is in direct Arty Fire and in Urban Areas (what is not Tankers Land)."

 

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2 hours ago, Eisenschwein said:

Sorry to say, but that is completely nonsense.

As a Tank Cdr or a Plt Ldr you have to do several "Visual Thinks" parallel and every Second at the Battlefield:

- What Terrain in Front and Behind my Tank?

- Where is my next BP in Front or Behind my Tank?

- Where are my Wingman, Plt Ldr, CO, attached Elements?

- Where are the other Platoons?

- Where is the Eny and what can he do?

- Where is my Wingman shooting at and is he hitting the Target?

- Where is my Tank shooting at?

- Can I hear something?

- Is my Tank in a good Shape?

- What is the best Formation for my Plt?

- Do I have to help a Wingman with firing on a Target

aso, aso, aso....

 

The likelihood of flipping a Tank around is nearly 0%, to be hit by Arty Shrapnel or a sharpshooter is under 10%, if you do right.

That does not mean to stand in the Turret (or as I said to my young Comrades: Don´t stand as Rommel in Africa), but to look outside with open Hatches, it´s the only way to become a situational Awareness!

 

The only 2 Options to close the Hatch is in direct Arty Fire and in Urban Areas (what is not Tankers Land).

 

 

Well, I never expected to be accused of spouting "complete nonsense," so I'd better do a bit of clarification. When I say, "stay down in the hatch or turret," I mean that the crew commander has no more than the top half of his head exposed. This allows him to look around, use his binoculars and still be relatively safe. Also, and I mention this with the greatest of respect, I would suggest that most of the questions listed in the attached response can be dealt with by effective drills, well-understood platoon and company standing operating procedures, disciplined radio procedure, and outright hard training. 

 

One of our LAVs rolled in a brigade exercise last year. Another rolled in driver training at our local base. The crew commanders in each case died when they were crushed by not being down in the hatch. They could not jump out of the vehicle, and they could not get down in the vehicle, and they both paid the price. Some years ago, a tank hit a soft shoulder on a deep ditch, slid into the ditch and rolled over. The driver got out, but the turret crew died when the tank burned. These are infrequent accidents, but they DO happen. "...to be hit by Arty Shrapnel or a sharpshooter is under 10%, if you do right."  I agree. I also would say, in response, that if you do it wrong, you can die.

 

I'm not looking to start a major argument here. I've seen enough accidents around AFVs, and I've had one myself (best training aid for AFV safety I ever had! ;)). It all comes down to common sense and training, training, training. Enough said, my friends. Have a great weekend!

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8 hours ago, Eisenschwein said:

Doctrines were made by People sitting on a wooden Table, not by Tankers sitting on a Steel Beast.

 

If it is possible to make the decisions on Battle Field by a Tank, why still Men are is sitting inside ?

 

yes but in many cases those people sitting at the wooden table were once themselves at one point in thier military career young officers out in the field. I'm sure when applying new tactics, it is backed up on past practical field experience or at the very least from units experimenting with new tactics, and not just pure academic theories.

Edited by Kev2go
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10 hours ago, Eisenschwein said:

Doctrines were made by People sitting on a wooden Table, not by Tankers sitting on a Steel Beast.

 

If it is possible to make the decisions on Battle Field by a Tank, why still Men are is sitting inside ?


You (afaik) didn't operate vehicles with CITV and GPS TIS.
To compare the requirement of older vehicles and very modern ones to use vision blocks or unbuttoned commander is slightly misleading if you ignore this difference.

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2 hours ago, GSprocket said:


You (afaik) didn't operate vehicles with CITV and GPS TIS.
To compare the requirement of older vehicles and very modern ones to use vision blocks or unbuttoned commander is slightly misleading if you ignore this difference.

 

Well I'm current, having both a M1 and ASLAV (and a Leo AS1 one too) Crew Commander's ticket.

 

I think the German and Canadian responses above both have merit.

 

You need to have your head out as a commander to retain SA.

 

"out" is defined roughly as the top of your shoulders level with the top of the vision blocks.

 

Sure sometimes you need to stand a little higher (e.g. going from fully concealed to hull down, etc.) but having your navel level with the vision blocks is not ideal/frowned upon.

 

This lets you look around turret fittings, whilst being low enough for your shoulders to absorb the jolts of cross country driving.

 

If you need to drop down you can, if you need to get up you can.

 

CITV (the few times I've used one) and vision blocks give you some SA but not full SA. Trying to see through vision blocks with dust / rain / mud on the outside is not as good as a quick scan with the natural field of view provided by your eye, followed up by a more detailed scan of points of interest using your binos..

 

Certainly if there is small arms fire or mortars / artillery firing stay inside.

 

And yes if you are driving into say Grozny I'd stay lower than if I was driving around / past a small farm complex.

 

TIS can be a blessing and a disadvantage - yes you can see hot spots through foliage but it doesn't help with shape, shine, silhouette, things looking out of place (angular shape in a forest), vehicles with TI defeating cam nets, etc.

 

And yes I now get asked to help write Doctrine.

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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Gibsonm, do you guys ever get to use the small hand held thermal imagers when unbuttoned like the AN/PAS-23 and other's?

 

They are essentially 1x unity magnification, but with a 30 degree or more FOV and can scan a large area quickly, at least to where you might notice things out of place or have the larger optics of the vehicle more quickly hone in to make better identification.

BG-insight-mtm-an-pas-23-5.jpg?142224773

 

This is the unit I own, video of it outside of a car driving, the unit has been around for 10 years or so now.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1aYjBAHToU  Conditions were humid, and wet after a rain, in Hawaii.

Edited by Invader ZIM
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7 hours ago, Invader ZIM said:

Gibsonm, do you guys ever get to use the small hand held thermal imagers when unbuttoned like the AN/PAS-23 and other's?

 

They are essentially 1x unity magnification, but with a 30 degree or more FOV and can scan a large area quickly, at least to where you might notice things out of place or have the larger optics of the vehicle more quickly hone in to make better identification.

BG-insight-mtm-an-pas-23-5.jpg?142224773

 

This is the unit I own, video of it outside of a car driving, the unit has been around for 10 years or so now.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1aYjBAHToU  Conditions were humid, and wet after a rain, in Hawaii.

I need one of these that will fit on my A4 flattop....

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On 21/08/2016 at 10:15 PM, Invader ZIM said:

Gibsonm, do you guys ever get to use the small hand held thermal imagers when unbuttoned like the AN/PAS-23 and other's?

 

Nope.

 

NVGs for night work.

 

But the whole point your eye is often the best visual aide in terms of seeing dust and other things that TI units don't pick up.

 

Then come your ears. We'd always shut down when stopped and crews keep one earphone / headset cup off an ear.

 

Keeping your CVC on and the baffles closed is a great way to lose SA. Let alone resorting to some sort of monocular view of the world.

 

I see something, or suspect I see it, and I tell the gunner (or slew the gun myself) to have a closer look with a much better sight - and have the ability to shoot straight away if there is something there.

 

In any event that doesn't look very durable for use inside an AFV (probably either get smashed easily or need some huge Pelican case to store it).

 

Your eyes are stab mounted in your head and your binos are around your neck. :)

 

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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Even in armies that practice riding around unbuttoned at maximum height in peace time would be more inclined to "stay low" out of common sense and self preservation during war, especially of the high intensity type. In US Army this behavior is referred to as "name tag defilade" and is practiced from wartime experience.

 

But doctrinal sharp shooting aside, here is why the commander does not ride around at max height in Steel Beasts:

 

Because its the AI, and it looks stupid when every vehicle on the battlefield has a commander riding around completely careless (or apparently clueless) to the dangers.

 

So, rather than frustrate the user why the commander is at full height unbuttoned riding around as if on Red Square parade with bullets flying and artillery exploding all around, he stays low and safe. Otherwise there would be plenty of bug reports that "the AI commander is stupid riding around at maximum height all the time while enemy players shoot them with coax". There is no other way to approach it without things getting absurd, or having to completely rework AI commander behavior for what is otherwise a minimal effect (AI commanders do not gain more SA the higher they are in the hatch, sorry). So, we leave it up to the user -- if the user raises higher in hatch in Network Session, then this is shown as he is getting better SA at the cost of being more vulnerable (although the AI will do it too when firing overhead weapons or in some other cases).

 

That's pretty much it, in a nut shell. End of story. :P

 

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On 8/19/2016 at 1:21 PM, munckmb said:

Does anyone know the armor protection values for the AMV XA-360? It is ridiculously strong. I've been doing some tests and need multiple hits from even the m829a3 @ 1200 meters! When I switch to HEAT it's even worse! Besides the TC always loads sabot for this monster! The French would be delighted if their Leclerc had this much protection :-) More info would be nice.

 

Well, if you can produce a screenshot of an XA-360 taking M829A3 rounds without suffering damage then we would be interested to see it (and I am not talking about the third round to pass laterally through the engine compartment after the vehicle has 10+ component damage already listed).

 

This goes back to the whole ridiculous idea where people think that KE should kill anything with one shot. There is a pro/con relationship between KE and HEAT, otherwise they would not both exist in real life. Long story short, use HEAT against lighter armored targets. But I understand the frustration -- people have KE loaded and want to one-shot-kill everything they see.

 

The jab at the Leclerc is cute but ill informed. Light armor being shot through with 120mm KE killing everything in its path is hardly "protection". The difference being that the Leclerc would stand up to autocanon and most HEAT in most areas (barring the curiously designed mantlet? - please, save this for the Leclerc thread!). Of course it is possible to kill any tank with a series of well placed high performance APFSDS autocanon rounds (the M1, Leo2, Leclerc, Clallenger are no exceptions). You can certainly shoot the Leclerc in places with M829A3 and have it pass through while killing things in its path, without a full vehicle kill as well - it all depends on the impact area.

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I'll expand upon Volcano's comments regarding KE vs HEAT for those not familiar, and do so in very broad terms.

 

A modern "KE" round, meaning long rod penetrator APFSDS, is very thin, but very good at penetrating armor plate.  As it punches through the armor plate of a tank, the penetrator rod and the armor get hot.  The rod is eroding the armor, and the armor erodes the rod.  If the rod manages to defeat the armor, then the remnants of the rod, which are now white-hot incandescent chunks of metal (and on fire if the rod is DU!) and molten hot bits of armor plate come blasting out the back side of the plate.

 

This blast of hot metal tends to punch holes in things and light things on fire, like the crew, ammo, fuel, etc.  It is this that kills the vehicle.

 

Now let's say the rod hits an APC instead of a tank.  The armor plates are very thin, maybe even aluminum instead of steel.  The penetrator doesn't meet much resistance, so it doesn't get very hot, and not a whole lot of metal comes blasting out the back side of the plate.  Basically, the rod flies right through the target without having much effect.  Yes, this certainly can kill the vehicle, but if nothing critical is in it's path, there might not be much damage.  The rod, which hasn't hit the thick heavy armor it's made to punch through, keeps on sailing.

 

 

This is (one of the reasons) why tanks carry HEAT rounds.  They used to carry HEAT rounds as a primary anti-armor weapon, but now that your average MBT is armored up specifically to neutralize HEAT rounds, these are primarily for use against light armor.

When a HEAT rounds hits an APC, the warhead detonates, the liner collapses, and a big stream of vaporized copper, hot gas, plasma, and chunks of armor come blasting through the hull with much more effect than would have happened if you'd shot it with a sabot.

 

So the advantage of a HEAT round is that it's much more effective against light armor vehicles, and it can double as an HE round against infantry or soft targets.  The disadvantages of HEAT rounds are their low muzzle velocity leading to difficulty using them against moving targets or at long range, they can detonate on trees instead of the target, ERA may render them useless, and composite armor can be highly resistant to HEAT warheads.  Therefore, HEAT rounds have gone down several evolutionary paths.  NATO countries gave up on making HEAT rounds that would defeat heavy armor or MBTs, and developed multipurpose HE rounds that double as an anti-APC round at the cost lower muzzle velocity and shorter range (Slsgr95, DM11) and sub-caliber HEAT rounds that trade off penetration performance for longer range and higher muzzle velocity (M830A1 MPAT).  Russia instead tried using DU liners, or making tandem and even triple warhead HEAT rounds to defeat MBT armor and ERA.  They may have clung to making HEAT rounds capable of defeating MBT armor because their tanks also carry a large quantity of HE-Frag shells that aren't useful against MBTs, so having a quantity of HEAT rounds onboard that are only effective against light armor would be unacceptable.

 

On the other hand, the DM33 PELE round was developed as an alternative to explosive rounds entirely.  It is a long rod penetrator modified to easily break apart into a shower of fragments when used against light armor.  It offers the high muzzle velocity of a Sabot to make scoring a hit easier, but delivers the knockout punch you need against light armor.

 

However, the modifications done to the penetrator rod to cause it to fragment effectively when it penetrates a lightly armored target, now cause it to be ineffective against a heavily armored target.  The advantage of the PELE round is that the gunner can shoot it much like a normal Sabot, although it is still a special round for light armor.

 

Edited by Maj.Hans
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