Which tank would you like to play in SB?

[12Alfa]

Also not very effective against tanks is the HESH round.

.

WTF!!!!:confused:

[GH_Lieste]

Well, modern tanks have a spaced/laminate array.

Whether correct or not the 'penetration rate in SB' is compared against the 'HE' value which is typically much higher than the KE protection.

If you hit actual monolithic Rolled Homogenous Armour it is very effective, but the main protected areas of tanks are no longer made from simple RHA.

Is HESH still considered effective against the frontal armour of an MBT?

I know it is effective against the roof armour, or cupola of modern tanks, as a Challenger was destroyed in a friendly fire incident from a 120mm HESH round.

FWIW I think non penetrating HE impacts are underrated generally, but that is another story....

[IrishHussar]

That incedent should be ignored as the round actually went into the turret via an open hatch setting of secondary explosions from its own ammo.

Irish

[CharlieB]

Irish, Thank you for pointing that out. Those who were there know, and others make assumptions!

[GH_Lieste]

I understood it as shearing the entire cupola from the vehicle though, which would suggest a similar result from striking a buttoned vehicle?

It was as I recall a moderately long range shot against the 'dismounts' moving on top of some unidentified berm/bunker. The conditions were during the period of thermal cross-over when the tank had similar temperature to the background, and all that could be reliably seen were the crew moving on the vehicle roof.

It would probably be reasonable to expect mobility damage or impairment to the finer workings of the FCS from a big HESH round, but whether it would be significantly more damaging than a normal HE round with a contact fuse and delay is a matter for conjecture.

[FletchRDG]

personally i think it is an effective munition, very violent but its effective. does exactly what it says on the tin. its ashame that the chally is gettin a smoothbore upgrade (supposedly). changing it to the German L55 rheinmetal gun. Im sort of glad its a german gun, they do know their guns.

I heard about the chally getting hit and from what i heard it was the ammunition storage went off, poor lads wouldn't have stood a chance.

[dejawolf]

personally i think it is an effective munition, very violent but its effective. does exactly what it says on the tin. its ashame that the chally is gettin a smoothbore upgrade (supposedly). changing it to the German L55 rheinmetal gun. Im sort of glad its a german gun, they do know their guns.

I heard about the chally getting hit and from what i heard it was the ammunition storage went off, poor lads wouldn't have stood a chance.

it was a million to one shot, the HESH went in through the loaders hatch, and the loader died.

[Tacbat]

I understand the general differences between the HEAT and HESH rounds, but I do have a few questions.

While the thickness of a tanks armour may prevent the HEAT round from penetrating into the interior of the tank, does the thickness of the armour help to diffuse the concussion/shockwave of the HESH round? Also, would the impact of a HESH round be more detrimental to the crew compared to a HEAT round, if they both hit the tank in the same place?

[GH_Lieste]

HEAT explodes 'off' the tank, so a non-penetrating hit will be similar to an airburst round. For a given calibre, the quantity of HE filler is relatively small.

If the round can penetrate the armour then the jet, the 'plug' (a slow moving non-penetrating portion of the HEAT liner), and a spall cloud will enter the vehicle. The potential damage depends on the final penetration diameter, and is typically less for thick targets, or for thin ones where there is little material to form a spall cloud. Obviously if the target is too fragile it will be very vulnerable to the blast from the explosive itself.

HE can be set to explode with a standoff, on contact or after a delay. The HE content of a high capacity round is roughly 3-5 times that in a HEAT round of the same calibre.

If the armour is thin enough to allow complete perforation of the armour than the HE round will be roughly twice as effective in delay mode, as the blast will be effective in all directions (and may be increased by containment)... But thicker armour will probably cause the shell to break up before the correct operation of the fuse reducing the effectiveness of the explosive.

Impact mode will result in very severe localised blast damage, which will damage any external equipment, and may cause electronics and delicate moving parts to fail through shock damage. Whether the round causes a general structural failure depends on target strength and the size of the round, but for tank gun rounds this is not very likely. Fragmentation may penetrate thin armour, and homogenous plates may spall causing internal damage even without a complete perforation. Shocks are not well transmitted through low density voids/layers though so although relatively thick homogenous plates are vulnerable, even a simple array offers good protection from direct effects.

Airburst HE is less likely to cause damage to armour from blast, but the fragmentation effects will potentially penetrate light vehicles over a much wider area (than adirect hit in the same location), and damage to suspension, sights, weapons, antenna and exposed crew can be assumed.

HESH is similar to HE, but the round is designed to not perforate armour, spreading the HE filler into close contact with the armour before detonating. This increases the efficiency that the shockwaves are transmitted into the material, and the increased diameter of the contact area increases the effectiveness of the spalling mechanisms, especially against thick monolithic targets.

[12Alfa]

I understand the general differences between the HEAT and HESH rounds, but I do have a few questions.

While the thickness of a tanks armour may prevent the HEAT round from penetrating into the interior of the tank, does the thickness of the armour help to diffuse the concussion/shock wave of the HESH round? Also, would the impact of a HESH round be more detrimental to the crew compared to a HEAT round, if they both hit the tank in the same place?

Well there are many reports of crews surviving HEAT rounds, as they are very small(jet) in diameter. On the other hand the HESH especially large (105-120mm) rounds cause a very large shock wave.

Given that most if not all parts of the MBT are of a solid and hard in nature, the wave can cause not only to the armour but the parts/components around the wave to cause a great deal of damage. There are reports of not only the armour spalding off on the insides, but many parts near the impact coming loose and flying around the turret.

The blast on the out side can in some cases create a larger more deadly blast type effect on the inside.

just imagine a Hesh round hitting on the out side and just on the inside of that same spot there is many FSC components, or the MG and the belt of ammo, the Nitrogen cylinders, etc.

One can see how the effect would by multiplied in this case.

I have seen the effects of a 105MM Hesh round on a T-t2 hit in such a spot, the internal effect was or would have been devastating to any living or mechanical equipment inside. The inside of most MBTs are very cluttered compare to our family car.

Short story, HESH is very bad for the receiving party.:shocked:

Placing one in a metal garbage can, and having a good friend whack it with a steel maul with great force may give one a good idea of the effect on ones hearing/head.:debile2:

[Ssnake]

...does the thickness of the armour help to diffuse the concussion/shockwave of the HESH round?

That would require a material strength that is far beyond the practical limits of vehicle design. The best protection against HESH is a simple air gap array which pretty much all the modern AFVs have, at least for the most important protection elements (e.g. roofs may be excluded).

[Tacbat]

Thanks for the replys/insights gents.

[alpha6]

it was a million to one shot, the HESH went in through the loaders hatch, and the loader died.

:cry:

[KAreil]

I want my SPz ULAN! (IFV)

But according to Snake I get at least the Spanish Version of it

with the next Update! :-)

@ Snake: It is playable isn't it?

[Ssnake]

You bet. More buttons than ever.

[Hedgehog]

Buttons?

Does this thing sing and dance then?

[KAreil]

Buttons?

Does this thing sing and dance then?

Hmmm....as far as I remember No,

but there is a cage in it to prevent the passengers from getting hurt

when the turret is turning....but maybe the gunner could dance in it? ;-)

I'm still waiting for my copy so here's another stupid question:

Is it possible to play as a dismounted soldier form an IFV, the Pizzarro just as an example? :redface:

[alpha6]

I think you can make them run around but not much more

and again

MK4!

MK4!

MK4!

to get back on track with this thread

[Hedgehog]

Hmmm....as far as I remember No,

but there is a cage in it to prevent the passengers from getting hurt

when the turret is turning....but maybe the gunner could dance in it? ;-)

I'm still waiting for my copy so here's another stupid question:

Is it possible to play as a dismounted soldier form an IFV, the Pizzarro just as an example? :redface:

If it was a hot female gunner then my vote would be yes.

But regarding your question, if your talking about an FPS style then no.

However you can follow them around in 3rd person, tell them to move over there, turn around etc.

But you can't tell them to fire their RPGs at a tank rather than their rifles, which is annoying, daft and usually fatal.

[KAreil]

If it was a hot female gunner then my vote would be yes.

But regarding your question, if your talking about an FPS style then no.

However you can follow them around in 3rd person, tell them to move over there, turn around etc.

But you can't tell them to fire their RPGs at a tank rather than their rifles, which is annoying, daft and usually fatal.

Hmmm....the only female tank crew-woman I saw when I was in the Austrian Military had troubles fitting through the turret hatches ;-)

Okay, I could live with the 3rd person....but why isn't it possible to assign them a target???

Do you think it would be a big issue to implement it in future?

[Ssnake]

Hmmm....the only female tank crew-woman I saw when I was in the Austrian Military had troubles fitting through the turret hatches ;-)

I've seen male reservists with similar problems. :biggrin:

Okay, I could live with the 3rd person....but why isn't it possible to assign them a target???

That's a long story based on some design decisions that we made about a decade ago. Let's call it a "tradition" then to give it a positive spin. The idea was to let the user concentrate on the bigger tactical picture, not to micromanage every squad (or even individual soldiers down to the iron sights or a scope of a rifle - at which point SB Pro would enter the realm of shooter games, and there are a big number of better first person shooter games out there).

Eventually we will revise our position here. From time to time it's a good idea to have a look at old decisions and to figure out if their fundamental assumptions are still valid.

[GH_Lieste]

Yeah but moobs aren't as much fun to watch

[alpha6]

Hmmm....the only female tank crew-woman I saw when I was in the Austrian Military had troubles fitting through the turret hatches ;-)

did anyone help her?

[KAreil]

did anyone help her?

Hmmm.....Her Tank Commander gave her a hand....as far as I remember...

I was sitting with the rest of the squad in our IFV looking out the back hatch.....we were laughing and laughing and laughing....until the Commander closed the door to stop us...

So....at last now...you know the dark truth about me......I was no "real" tank man....in some way I was just a passenger.....Machine Gunner of an Mechanized Infantry sqad to be exact.

And that's why I'm so persistent about the Infantry Control,

I would really like to sneak up on some of the big fat tank and kill it! :biggrin:

So Ssnake, is there a chance it will be possible to assign them targets within the Upgrade with the Pizzaro?

And what does moob mean?

Is it some mean word for the Infantry?

[alpha6]

I think they should have something like in SB1 with the cross hair as like a TC override type thing so that you CAN kill a tank with Infantry

[/rambling of a guy that just woke up]