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Marko

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Starting a thread where armour enthusiasts with out a military background can ask professional tankers some questions.

 

 

Every now and then I jump out of my T-tank/BMP and see how the other half live.

With thermals ballistic computers dynamic lead etc.

Anyway I was playing a scenario this morning, engaging tanks past 4000m (would not even see them in a T -Tank.)

It got me thinking would professional tankers start engaging at that range while in a defensive position (cold war era battlefield)

Even for a skilled gunner engaging at that range would reduce the likely hood of a first round hit.

Your also letting your opfor know your there.

I have read in the Gulf wars there were some long range engagements but were on the offensive from the get go.

 

 

 

 

 

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  1. The question is, do you actually have that long of a field of view/field of fire? Assuming that this is the case,
  2. Can you accurately identify the target as enemy? Assuming that this is the case,
  3. Is the target static? Assuming that this is the case,
  4. Do you want to delay the enemy's advance rather than inflicting a maximum number of casualties? Assuming that this is the case,
  5. Do you suspect that you can still kill or at least seriously damage the target? (This is something you have either been briefed on, or you're one of the first to try, so sooner or later this would be known in an army that does some systematical evaluation of battle damages and documentation). Assuming that the answer to that is a Yes,
  6. Open fire

Now, prior to ODS we didn't expect T-72 to be that vulnerable to our ammunition to be able to go through a berm, through the tank, and then out on the other end of the tank as well. So the training was to open fire at ranges 2,500m and shorter, assuming that we'd have about 700m of "sweet standoff" before we'd become vulnerable to their fire too. After ODS we learned that 3,500m engagement ranges were, in fact, practical.

Some armies practice direct fire engagement ranges far beyond 4,000m, but typically only against unarmored, (near-) static targets.

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Yep and nothing I'm cleared to talk about.

 

Discussion of current Tactics, Techniques and Procedures (TTPs) and definitely off limits for an open source forum like this where real time opponents can just "google it".

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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2 hours ago, Ssnake said:
  1. The question is, do you actually have that long of a field of view/field of fire? Assuming that this is the case,
  2. Can you accurately identify the target as enemy? Assuming that this is the case,
  3. Is the target static? Assuming that this is the case,
  4. Do you want to delay the enemy's advance rather than inflicting a maximum number of casualties? Assuming that this is the case,
  5. Do you suspect that you can still kill or at least seriously damage the target? (This is something you have either been briefed on, or you're one of the first to try, so sooner or later this would be known in an army that does some systematical evaluation of battle damages and documentation). Assuming that the answer to that is a Yes,
  6. Open fire

Now, prior to ODS we didn't expect T-72 to be that vulnerable to our ammunition to be able to go through a berm, through the tank, and then out on the other end of the tank as well. So the training was to open fire at ranges 2,500m and shorter, assuming that we'd have about 700m of "sweet standoff" before we'd become vulnerable to their fire too. After ODS we learned that 3,500m engagement ranges were, in fact, practical.

Some armies practice direct fire engagement ranges far beyond 4,000m, but typically only against unarmored, (near-) static targets.

 

 

Thanks Ssanke.

 

I have read the Israeli's practice hitting targets at extreme ranges they also get to fire considerably more training rounds then most other army's.

Point 3, the opfor was advancing but was not aware of my position but I did spot recon vehicles so I started to engage.

 

As for the lessons learned from ODS and subsequent encounters with Soviet/Russian army.

I find this interesting simply because I once read an article about tests conducted on a T-80 allegedly left behind by the soviets when they withdraw from the former east Germany.

The report stated the Ammunition used by the German army at that time had difficulties penetrating the turret armour at long range.

Obviously just because its on the internet does not mean its true, it could well have been misinformation or just a blatant lie.

I think most would agree though the Armour the Iraqis fielded was not the best the soviets had at the time.

 

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3 hours ago, Marko said:

I find this interesting simply because I once read an article about tests conducted on a T-80 allegedly left behind by the soviets when they withdraw from the former east Germany.

The report stated the Ammunition used by the German army at that time had difficulties penetrating the turret armour at long range.

 

This may have referred to the 120mm DM33 APFSDS. Later the DM 43, 53, and then 63 were introduced (the latter two with near-identical performance, the '63 is more like a "DM53A1" (which is why we haven't bothered adding it to SB Pro yet)).

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The Iraqis had the "M" Model, so they had a significantly reduced armour performance over the Soviet "B" models

 

I think the Coalition were using M829A1 and Charm 1 / L23A1

 

Personally if I'm firing on something over 2.5km + I tend to use 2-3 rounds on it, if it hasn't changed shape and/or colour, displace and maintain observation.

(Assuming no other responsibilities.)

 

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I suppose the case could be made that the people who are regularly playing Steel Beasts in network sessions and who have hundreds of (simulated) long range engagements under their belts could be considered "professionals" as well, with a highly specific skill/experience set. Many videos that I see of online battles are taking place at what one could consider "extreme" ranges (not always with adequate reactions from the targeted players who sometimes tend to want to "duke it out").

 

 

Of course SB Pro is no perfect substitute for reality. But it IS one of the rare testbeds for (contemporary) symmetrical tank warfare (e.g. "what would happen if both sides had thermal imagers and large caliber tank guns" ... in highly contested airspace). You don't get to test that, fortunately, in a real war (and hopefully we never will). So... as much as SB Pro PE is a "game", I think one could draw a few (carefully selected) conclusions from it (always taken with a grain of salt).

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If you look at scenarios where one side is attacking and using fairly choreographed tactics (I'm thinking the Soviets here), and the other has an FCS range advantage and the added advantage of being static at the outset, any disruption inflicted on an attacking formation at a distance would have the potential to derail their attack so that it comes in in a more piecemeal way, enabling you to focus more firepower on fewer vehicles as they enter what would normally be the engagement zone.

 

A long time ago (amazingly,26 years ago to be exact) the US trialled a round specifically intended to break up incoming tank formations at extended ranges even if line of sight was not available.

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In my experience, prior to ODS typical trigger line planning ranges were between 2200 to 2400m for the 120s as Ssnake noted above, but post ODS the planning range increased to 2800m and pretty much stayed there until I got out in 2000. 

Edited by MAJ_Fubar

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In 2004, during a rotation at our Combat Training Center, I  destroyed 28 tanks with Miles in 4 days.I was platoon sergent and considered as the worst TC by the CO because I arrived in his unit the month before.

 

Day 1. Offensive recon.

9 out 12 tanks of the squadron destroyed by mines or infantry ambush. With 3 tanks I have to block an eny tank company. I cross the line of fire and each tank apply flanc shot. I destroy 6 tanks between 3200 an 4100m. My subordinates 3. The last withdraw

 

Day 2. Withdraw under pressure.

I destroy 2 tanks at 3000 before to be damaged by friendly artillery fire.

I pass the day at the workshop.

 

Day 3. Counter attack.

I destroy 3 tanks at less than 500m during the sweep

 

Day 4. Deliberate defence.

I destroy 8 Opfor tanks at 3800m which are attacking our motorized neighbourgh, included the Opfor CO.

My CO is very angry after me ( I requested permission to engage, giving the eny grid) but the other CO is gratefull because I save his overrun unit.

Later I destroy 9 of 16 tanks in my area (1200-1700m).

My tank is badly damaged by an 500m radius enemy arty fire...

End of war.

 

All destruction were valid laser shot.

I engaged because I knew those were tanks and no friendly tanks were in those areas. I did not engaged Opfor APC and IFV, as they were too similar in the distance (only the color is different).

 

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Identifying and hitting in a M1 is not a problem. I was a Sepv2 tanker. My thermals were beautiful, and my bore sight was always tight. On a cav table 13, when I was checking my sector limits, I was able to identify hard target m60 hulls (not blurs but the actual outline) at over 5000m. When exercise actually kicked off I managed a 1 shot training sabot kill at Over 3000m ( don't remember the exact range 3400 sounds right but it was a while ago).

 

I was fully confident that I could hit out to 4000, and score turret rings out to 2500. The only uncertainty in a real engagement would revolve around if the a3 sabot still had enough juice to defeat the era at extreme ranges.

 

 

Edited by Hasler

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AMX 30B2 = T72B

AMX10P = BMP 2

P4 = UAZ

Great info guys, appreciate it. Froggy, what gen thermals did your Leclerc have?

Athos was better than Leopard 2A4 one, Iris is even better, but not as the last Flir in M1A2sepV2

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Hmmm if the 2nd generation FLIR on M1A2SEPv1/v2 is so good, I wonder how good will be 3rd generation FLIR on M1A2SEPv3, and what FCS modifications it might imply... well I guess we probably got to know in following years.

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On 9/20/2016 at 0:41 AM, Froggy said:

In 2004, during a rotation at our Combat Training Center, I  destroyed 28 tanks with Miles in 4 days.I was platoon sergent and considered as the worst TC by the CO because I arrived in his unit the month before.

 

Day 1. Offensive recon.

9 out 12 tanks of the squadron destroyed by mines or infantry ambush. With 3 tanks I have to block an eny tank company. I cross the line of fire and each tank apply flanc shot. I destroy 6 tanks between 3200 an 4100m. My subordinates 3. The last withdraw

 

Day 2. Withdraw under pressure.

I destroy 2 tanks at 3000 before to be damaged by friendly artillery fire.

I pass the day at the workshop.

 

Day 3. Counter attack.

I destroy 3 tanks at less than 500m during the sweep

 

Day 4. Deliberate defence.

I destroy 8 Opfor tanks at 3800m which are attacking our motorized neighbourgh, included the Opfor CO.

My CO is very angry after me ( I requested permission to engage, giving the eny grid) but the other CO is gratefull because I save his overrun unit.

Later I destroy 9 of 16 tanks in my area (1200-1700m).

My tank is badly damaged by an 500m radius enemy arty fire...

End of war.

 

All destruction were valid laser shot.

I engaged because I knew those were tanks and no friendly tanks were in those areas. I did not engaged Opfor APC and IFV, as they were too similar in the distance (only the color is different).

 

 

 

Guess you showed him. :P

 

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I was fully confident that I could hit out to 4000, and score turret rings out to 2500. The only uncertainty in a real engagement would revolve around if the a3 sabot still had enough juice to defeat the era at extreme ranges.

 

Same storie with the old Leopard 1a5Be we was able to easily hit a tank at 4000m and a turret (hull down posn)at 2500m the problem was ammo performance at those distances...

 

 

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