Regarding the CV9035dk/NL

[ChrisWerb]

I'm sorry, I was confused. I thought KETF was an "AHEAD" or "shrapnel" type munition and ABM was a projectile like the Bofors 3P or the XM-25s 25mm grenade. 

This .pdf  presentation on a 35mm KETF evaluation for the CV9035NL has probably been posted many times before, but I thought it was really good.

Edited September 27, 2016 by ChrisWerb

[ChrisWerb]

More old news, this time from 2012 on NL exploring 35mm options.

[Ssnake]

AHEAD is very similar to KETF, except for the different size of the tungsten pellets which were tailored to the anti-aircraft role (bigger, heavier pellets that will penetrate deeper into an aircraft body) rather than the anti-infantry role.

[ChrisWerb]

How do you boresight or assure sight alignment of both the 35mm and the coax?  

[Ssnake]

In-bore device to guide on target, then adjust sights to match where the gun is pointing, then shoot on target to determine system fault values (and, if necessary, adjust MG mount).

[ChrisWerb]

I read that at least one of the 35mm armed CV90 variants has a TI that constantly autofocuses. Speaking as a camera user, autofocus is as much a curse as it is a boon - is there a way to override autofocus on these vehicles?

[Kingtiger]

the 35DK has autofocus and you will love it, not having to manually adjust focus when scaning in TI all the time.

[ChrisWerb]

Do you not get problems when the autofocus insists on focusing on an object in the foreground though? For example you looking at a distant enemy PC through a row of fenceposts or through a gap in trees a short distance away and it insists on finding those more interesting than the BMP-2 that's about the AT-5 you.

[MikeKiloPapa]

On 27/9/2016 at 1:57 PM, dejawolf said:

and certainly a lower rate of fire than the CV9040

 

Is that really the case though?.....with only 24 ready rounds the CV9040 need to reload more often and  AFAIK the semi-quick on-the-move reloading of the 40mm  is only possible with infantry in the back . With dismounted infantry the reloading process takes a lot longer and requires either the gunner or commander to exit the turret and reload the ammo magazine manually from the crew compartment , something not modelled in SB. 

 

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which has a superior HE-frag round.

The 3P round?.....That's highly debatable......Sure , its ability to engage infantry behind cover is an advantage, but against infantry in the open , aerial targets and vehicles its superiority over KETF is questionable.  The individual fragments/tungsten pellets of the 3P are much smaller and carry much less kinetic energy than the corresponding subprojectiles of KETF rounds for instance, resulting in lesser lethality.  Something the USN also found out when they tested the 57mm version of 3P against various surface targets where it turned out to be much less effective than anticipated/advertised. ( it was in fact deemed to be less effective against surface targets than the 30mmm fired from the Mk46 gun (naval bushmaster mk 44 variant)

 

 

USN test 57mm vs 30mm on DDG-1000

 

More on the 57mm test:

 

"The analysis, he said, showed that the capability of the 57mm "was overstated in the model," while the 30mm was understated. "They saw a system that did not meet the requirement anymore and one that did."

While i'm not entirely sure i buy their conclusion regarding the 30 vs 57 mm rounds, i do think it points to the fact that the 3P ammo isn't all its cracked up to be. 

 

Edited September 29, 2016 by MikeKiloPapa

[dejawolf]

1 hour ago, MikeKiloPapa said:

 

Is that really the case though?.....with only 24 ready rounds the CV9040 need to reload more often and  AFAIK the semi-quick on-the-move reloading of the 40mm  is only possible with infantry in the back . With dismounted infantry the reloading process takes a lot longer and requires either the gunner or commander to exit the turret and reload the ammo magazine manually from the crew compartment , something not modelled in SB. 

 

 

this is false. under the turret floor there's a spinning ammunition dish that holds 48 rounds, that can be pulled out easily by either TC or gunner, and gun can be reloaded from this quickly and easily.

under this 48 round dish, there's an additional 18 rounds in the hull easily accessible from the turret.  

only after those 90 rounds have been exhausted, do you need to exit the turret to reload from the hull. 

for comparison, the cv9035 only has 70 rounds ready to fire, and only if you want to spend 10 minutes reloading. 

if not you have a max of.. what is it, 20 or 30 rounds before a 1-2 minute reload? 

[MikeKiloPapa]

3 hours ago, dejawolf said:

 

this is false. under the turret floor there's a spinning ammunition dish that holds 48 rounds,

I knew about the tray , just didn't think the crew could actually reach it and reload from within the turret...i was obviously wrong.....the sources i could find suggest reload times about a minute for all 24 rounds ......in SB it takes less than 30 seconds though. 

 

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for comparison, the cv9035 only has 70 rounds ready to fire, and only if you want to spend 10 minutes reloading. 

16 minutes in SB actually.....per feed !!  ........i have heard several figures from different CV9035 crews and CV90 Master Gunners and none of them were near 30 min for a total reload.....most said 10-15 min. Maybe DK-DAMM can chime in with his experiences.

 

As a comparison  the CV9030 completes the process in a little over 2 minutes in SB !......idk? ....i just find it hard to believe that what is essentially a slightly bigger version of the same weapon system using the same type of ammo link and feed takes 8 times longer to reload ! 

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if not you have a max of.. what is it, 20 or 30 rounds before a 1-2 minute reload? 

2 x14 =28 rounds before EoB .......if you reload after 7 rounds fired you can usually reload in less than 45 seconds.

[Maj.Hans]

12 hours ago, dejawolf said:

 

this is false. under the turret floor there's a spinning ammunition dish that holds 48 rounds, that can be pulled out easily by either TC or gunner, and gun can be reloaded from this quickly and easily.

under this 48 round dish, there's an additional 18 rounds in the hull easily accessible from the turret.  

only after those 90 rounds have been exhausted, do you need to exit the turret to reload from the hull. 

for comparison, the cv9035 only has 70 rounds ready to fire, and only if you want to spend 10 minutes reloading. 

if not you have a max of.. what is it, 20 or 30 rounds before a 1-2 minute reload? 

 

This leads to something that might need to be (or should be) addressed in a future patch of Pro PE...

 

Right now the AI gunners automatically use the end of belt stop.

This isn't a huge deal for vehicles with large quantities of ammo at the ready, but with the 90/35 and such a small quantity of ready rounds.....Maybe that's not a good idea...

[dejawolf]

video showing effects of HE and 3p ammo for cv9040:

 

[dejawolf]

around 1:50 seconds you can see the reloading procedure of the cv9040:

 

Edited September 30, 2016 by dejawolf

[dejawolf]

9 hours ago, MikeKiloPapa said:

As a comparison  the CV9030 completes the process in a little over 2 minutes in SB !......idk? ....i just find it hard to believe that what is essentially a slightly bigger version of the same weapon system using the same type of ammo link and feed takes 8 times longer to reload ! 

2 x14 =28 rounds before EoB .......if you reload after 7 rounds fired you can usually reload in less than 45 seconds.

 

the gun is pretty much a scaled up version of the same design. however, the ammunition storage is completely different. 

on the cv9030, the ammunition is in a half-moon shape along the front of the turret, and the rounds are stored vertically. 

you remove a few panels and have access to nearly the entire feed. 

in the cv9035 the rounds are in small boxes under the TC and gunners butt, and the rounds are stored horizontally. 

 

the higher ammunition count on the cv9030 means it's not as easy to get to end of belt. 

[Ssnake]

We're working with the figures that the armies are giving us. Sometimes it's an estimate, in rare occasions they actually perform a demonstration to use with a rolling camera so we can time the activities.

Anyway, as long as we don't get feedback from the armies that the values we have in SB are off, we're hard pressed to change them and tell them "we know better than you".

 

 

That said, I'll go and ask the responsible project managers to confirm the loading times.

[MikeKiloPapa]

On 30/9/2016 at 10:02 AM, dejawolf said:

 

the gun is pretty much a scaled up version of the same design. however, the ammunition storage is completely different. 

on the cv9030, the ammunition is in a half-moon shape along the front of the turret, and the rounds are stored vertically. 

you remove a few panels and have access to nearly the entire feed. 

in the cv9035 the rounds are in small boxes under the TC and gunners butt, and the rounds are stored horizontally. 

 

Again i know, but access to those magazines is not the issue here .....assembling the 7 round ammo sections and pulling the belt through the gun feed is what takes time. My point being that the same should be the case for the CV9030 .? 

Unless i'm mistaken, the 30x173 rounds  also comes in smaller sections that needs to be linked as part of the reloading process. So an 80 round belt would require the assembling of 8-10? ammo sections that then need to be fed into the gun chute . 

I have a really hard time seeing how that is even possible in just 2 minutes. 

 

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the higher ammunition count on the cv9030 means it's not as easy to get to end of belt. 

 

Absolutely true, though in my experience you also tend to "waste" more rounds ( ie you miss more than with the 35mm) so you still need to reload regularly , albeit not nearly as frequently as with the CV9035 of course. 

[dejawolf]

7 minutes ago, MikeKiloPapa said:

Again i know, but access to those magazines is not the issue here .....assembling the 7 round ammo sections and pulling the belt through the gun feed is what takes time. My point being that the same should be the case for the CV9030 .? 

Unless i'm mistaken, the 30x173 rounds  also comes in smaller sections that needs to be linked as part of the reloading process. So an 80 round belt would require the assembling of 8-10? ammo sections that then need to be fed into the gun chute . 

I have a really hard time seeing how that is even possible in just 2 minutes. 

 

 

Absolutely true, though in my experience you also tend to "waste" more rounds ( ie you miss more than with the 35mm) so you still need to reload regularly , albeit not nearly as frequently as with the CV9035 of course. 

 

afaik, belts of the cv9030 is 7 round sections as well. 

[DK-DDAM]

it will take time to reload the mags, since the section of 7 needs to be attached with the next bit of the belt. thats going in.. dont think its any different from ours to the 9030 to be fair.

[MikeKiloPapa]

On 30/9/2016 at 9:50 AM, dejawolf said:

video showing effects of HE and 3p ammo for cv9040:

 

Its a classic :-D .......The 40mm HE-T is very impressive but then again you would have achieved similar results with a burst of 35mm HEI. 

 

The APFSDS-T test is interesting.....it shows quite spectacular performance from what i assume is the  Slpprj 90LK/97 round......it does seem to point to the penetration figures for 40mm APFSDS in SB being quite "conservative" 

 

As to the 3P demonstration i rather think it underscores my point....the effects against the plywood/ sheet metal helicopter mock-up isn't exactly convincing.....neither did the cardboard/ plastic barrel "infantry" constitute a realistic target set. 

[MikeKiloPapa]

On 30/9/2016 at 10:29 AM, Ssnake said:

We're working with the figures that the armies are giving us. Sometimes it's an estimate, in rare occasions they actually perform a demonstration to use with a rolling camera so we can time the activities.

Anyway, as long as we don't get feedback from the armies that the values we have in SB are off, we're hard pressed to change them and tell them "we know better than you".

 

 

That said, I'll go and ask the responsible project managers to confirm the loading times.

Thank you, much appreciated.  

[DK-DDAM]

here we go.. the video of the FCS modes on the vehicle, hope it helps out abit.. and of course sorry about the length of the video.. updated video.. wrong one im sry bout that

 

 

Edited October 2, 2016 by DK-DDAM

[Kingtiger]

2 hours ago, MikeKiloPapa said:

The APFSDS-T test is interesting.....it shows quite spectacular performance from what i assume is the  Slpprj 90LK/97 round......it does seem to point to the penetration figures for 40mm APFSDS in SB being quite "conservative" 

 

remember when SB Pro  was introduced to the Swedish army with the CV9040 we had a discussion about that and "they" said that they had given lower values both on weapons effect and armor to not give away the real performance and it was better to teach cadetts that their vehicles are vulnerable so they survive instead of making them coccy that their vehicles are awesome killing machines. So it kind of makes sense. 

 

Esimgames are after all just a civilan company, who would you share real data on vehicles that are actually in use? You never know where that data ends up (No offense Ssnake).

 

/KT

[DK-DDAM]

yeah think when i talked to volcano about the 35 ketf it was the same... just to not let ppl think its a killing machine but yeah it is as it is... still a great tool none the less..

[DK-DDAM]

anyways more will follow laters regarding some of the other stuff on that, like emergency modes.