Approximating the M60A1

[Mirzayev]

I've been thinking about creating a scenario with some Iranian M60A1s in it. Since the M60A1 isn't modeled, I think that the closest approximation is a degraded M60A3. 

 

Obviously, disabling lead and thermals is a given. However, I know the M60A1 used a coincidental rangefinder (not simulated), so with disabling the laser range will have to be put in manually by simply estimating range. Would that be in line with how the Iranians would have fought with their M60s? Also, the M60A1 cannot fire on the move, so I'll need to disable some sort of stabilization for that.

 

Is there anything I am missing, or any ideas for how to make this as close as possible to how an M60A1 would behave?

[Maj.Hans]

For a vanilla M60A1, I would think disable the stabilizer, thermals, and dynamic lead if you can disable it.

I would leave the LRF enabled, but would ask human TCs to put the laser into "ON" mode rather than Auto, requiring them to manually range the target and feed the range to the FCS using the LRF sights.  A good approximation of using the optical rangefinder, IMHO.

[Gibsonm]

1 hour ago, Maj.Hans said:

I would leave the LRF enabled, but would ask human TCs to put the laser into "ON" mode rather than Auto, requiring them to manually range the target and feed the range to the FCS using the LRF sights.

 

That might work if there was only one M60A1.

 

But what if you have a Company?

 

Your player may well manually input it on their tank but what do the other AI controlled ones do?

[Marko]

Did something similar for a mission I was working on

got some good tips.

 

 

[enigma6584]

12 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

I've been thinking about creating a scenario with some Iranian M60A1s in it. Since the M60A1 isn't modeled, I think that the closest approximation is a degraded M60A3. 

 

Obviously, disabling lead and thermals is a given. However, I know the M60A1 used a coincidental rangefinder (not simulated), so with disabling the laser range will have to be put in manually by simply estimating range. Would that be in line with how the Iranians would have fought with their M60s? Also, the M60A1 cannot fire on the move, so I'll need to disable some sort of stabilization for that.

 

Is there anything I am missing, or any ideas for how to make this as close as possible to how an M60A1 would behave?

 

I created a mission a while back where I did the same thing.  Here is the link to the thread regarding my asking basically the same question.  M60A3TTS to M60A1 .  The mission is in the downloads section and you can take a look at Red Side in order to see all I did to make the A3 simulate the A1.

[Maj.Hans]

10 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

 

That might work if there was only one M60A1.

 

But what if you have a Company?

 

Your player may well manually input it on their tank but what do the other AI controlled ones do?

 

I wouldn't worry about the AI.  It's the same end result for them.

We dont worry about LRF vs optical for the Leopard1, so, yhea.  I was just suggesting that for human crews to get a different experience.

[Kev2go]

personally if we do get a crewable m60a1 id hope for it to be AOS  or RISE just for the stabilization. if non stabilized version is needed to be simulated for a spcifc scneario it could just be dsiabled via settings after all. Its think its not quite possible to properly simulate the A1 due to differences in FCS and using a Coincidence rangefinder

 

I indeed think  m60A1 would nice, as well a for a more appropriate opponent for older soviet armor  currently in sb such as the T55 and T62, without being total fodder.

 

i coudlnt find any original pictures of vanilla A1, i found this, but its very likely an AOS ( maybe RISE, cant tell due to its being just turret trainer) , due to the stab control panel right by the machine gun panel, and just above the gunners controls.

 

 

ol school mechanical ballistic computer

 

 

 

http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/m60a1_trainer.htm

 

 

This taken from another tank sim, Steel armor blaze of war. Vannila m60a1 ( couldnt find real images of standard A1)

 

 

As a sidenote i think night operations with pre m60a1 Rise/Passive is going to be problematic as they require and active functoning IR lamp to see anything through the night sights, and sadly ESim doesnt model functioning IR lamps, for tanks that would require use of them.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2016 by Kev2go

[TSe419E]

Ah, memories.  An M60A1 with IR sights does need active illumination but one with passive sights does not.

 

Concerning the range finder I don't really think that it would be that different between a laser RF or a coincidence RF.  I know the LRF would be faster but I don't think it would be so much faster, as it is presented in the game, that it would need to be changed to get a reasonable approximation of an 'A1.

[Kev2go]

20 minutes ago, TSe419E said:

Ah, memories.  An M60A1 with IR sights does need active illumination but one with passive sights does not.

 

Concerning the range finder I don't really think that it would be that different between a laser RF or a coincidence RF.  I know the LRF would be faster but I don't think it would be so much faster, as it is presented in the game, that it would need to be changed to get a reasonable approximation of an 'A1.

 

 

but its the process thats different. a gunner cant range himself, it needs to be done by the commander by looking through an optic and ghosting the images until its aligned and the target doesnt look blurry, which then has range displayed for the TC, and then needs to press a switch for the data to be transfered to the mechanical ballistic computer.

 

we need to have an actual M60a1 of some sort (whether vanilla, AOS, Rise, or RISE/Passive). disabling features of the m60a3 isnt quite going to give use the experience of an m60a1, especially since the main sight is different for the gunner.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Kev2go

[Mirzayev]

Thanks for the responses! I've done some tests, and disabling the TTS, stabilization, and dynamic lead is working nicely. I'm still torn between leaving the LRS or disabling it as well. 

 

Testing with the LRS revealed some interesting issues, like attempting to apply lead (when dynamic lead is disabled), and occasionally refusing to fire or operate without the Commander turning the rangefinder switch from "Auto" to... "Auto." I'm not sure if this is realistic behavior, or just due to the model being new.

 

Of course, any approximation is just that; my main goal is to simulate an Iranian M60A1, including the average Iranian crew level of training. Depending on how accurate the crews traditionally were might play into keeping the LRF or not.

 

 

 

[TSe419E]

2 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

 

 

but its the process thats different. a gunner cant range himself, it needs to be done by the commander by looking through an optic and ghosting the images until its aligned and the target doesnt look blurry, which then has range displayed for the TC, and then needs to press a switch for the data to be transfered to the mechanical ballistic computer.

 

That is not quite right.  As the TC is turning the range knob the ballistic computer is constantly being updated by input from a mechanical linkage (which you can see in the picture you posted above) and is constantly changing the super elevation of the main gun carriage.  There is no button to push to transfer the data.  Speed of this operation is limited by the skill and accuracy of the TC.  Sight "blurriness" is corrected by the diopter on the range finder.  Bringing the images into coincidence can be difficult if the images are aligned evenly on the vertical axis but if they are slightly off it is quite easy to align them horizontally, which is how the range is determined.

[Kev2go]

found this from video overview of an m60a1 functions from a different game i once played before moving over to here. thought to share. 

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, TSe419E said:

 

That is not quite right.  As the TC is turning the range knob the ballistic computer is constantly being updated by input from a mechanical linkage (which you can see in the picture you posted above) and is constantly changing the super elevation of the main gun carriage.  There is no button to push to transfer the data.  Speed of this operation is limited by the skill and accuracy of the TC.  Sight "blurriness" is corrected by the diopter on the range finder.  Bringing the images into coincidence can be difficult if the images are aligned evenly on the vertical axis but if they are slightly off it is quite easy to align them horizontally, which is how the range is determined.

 

 

ah thanks for clarifying.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Kev2go