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Is the random number variable in the editor the best we have for creating random and "dynamic" missions?


Chaosduck7
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Im only interested in playing single player, so I would have to design a lot of the missions for myself to play. 

 

And I would want to be surprised at what is thrown at me.

 

Ive been trying to learn the editor and it seems like the only obvious thing availalbe to create ranodmized routes/paths is using this system

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=Random_Numbers_In_Control_Logic 

 

But all that really lets me do is assign a probability that a certain route will be taken, and also lets me sync units together. 

 

 

Is there an easier way to populate the map with intelligent adversaries? This still needs me putting down units one by one, so I kinda know what to expect even if they could take many different routes. 

 

 

Thats really the main thing keeping me from purchasing the full game (doing a month trial now).

 

I dont want to depend on user created missions to play the game. Ideally id just like to define some parameters such as "Enemy force is mostly mechanised and occupies this zone" and off I go with a random yet cohesive mission, but im not seeing any way to do that.

Edited by Chaosduck7
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While there is no feature to automatically spawn random units, per se, the random variables can be used to spawn different forces in different strengths at different locations. This has been discussed several times elsewhere in this forum. A search should quickly locate some of those posts. But, I will see if I can link to a few anyway.

 

Links to follow...

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Ok so I read some of them, and I like the possible workarounds of having different possible spawns for units. Thats easy enough to do.

 

 

But is there any way to have their AI kick in instead of manually mapping possible routes? Like say mark an objective for them to take and let them pathfind to it? I think my biggest inconvenience isnt setting their order of battle, but their waypoints. 

 

 

 

 

 

Like for example, I just spent an hour trying to figure out the infantry AI.

 

 

I placed a bunch of AI infantry units in a town and advanced some opfor forces on them. 

 

I tried 2 different method for the AI units.

 

First method involved placing them spread out around the town with the "None" tactic selected. So they all spawned looking east as normal. When the enemy came up on the town, the vast majority of the infantry stayed looking east without running for cover or doing anything to protect themselves! OCCASIONALLY, someone really close to the enemy might rotate to face them and fire back, but thats all they would do. They would never run for cover or garrison a building.

 

 

 

Second method involved placing them down the same way but with the "Defensive" tactic selected. Now, I like how the AI garrisons buildings nearby automatically. Thats exactly the kind of thing i want! They also appropriately fire back. Except theres one downside, you can only have them face a certain direction. Now if they were units under your control, that would be fine since you can just change their facing, but since I would want to use them as the CPU adversary, whatever I place them in the editor, they are locked as. There is no option that i can see for "secure the perimeter" or "scan 360". Also, even if they are on "Defensive", if an enemy advances near them but they arnt in the cone of sight, they will remain facing the direction they will be placed in.

 

 

Now, I really hope im jsut really dumb and missing some obvious editor tricks. Im not looking for super advanced AI or anything, but some autonomy is needed. I dont want to have to plan each and every step units take.

 

On the plus side, I like ssnakes method of placing down a group of units and link them to possible spawnpoints with the "jump to if" command. That is an extremely simple way to randomize enemy force starting locations. Its just what they do after thats my problem :(

 

Is this just something I wont get with this game? I really want to like it, and I do love the core simulation/gameplay. But the mission editor is such a big part. 

Edited by Chaosduck7
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4 hours ago, Chaosduck7 said:

First method involved placing them spread out around the town with the "None" tactic selected. So they all spawned looking east as normal. When the enemy came up on the town, the vast majority of the infantry stayed looking east without running for cover or doing anything to protect themselves! OCCASIONALLY, someone really close to the enemy might rotate to face them and fire back, but thats all they would do. They would never run for cover or garrison a building.

 

Well they are doing what you told them to do.

 

You gave them no direction / orders so don't be surprised if they do nothing. :) Its just an application of GIGO.

 

Give them a Defend tactic and a direction and they will defend against a threat coming from that area.

 

Give them "none" and they'll sit around and do "nothing" - just as you told them.

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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You also can check the formation options for a battle-position. That will at least work for vehicles.

If you want to put infantry in a 360° defensive BP, use more then one team(with appt size , you can vary from 1 to 15 soldiers per team) and place them in  a perimeter...

 

Also if you want more randomness: let them spawn in random positions and then attach a couple routes with "follow if" conditions on te spawn point. You can do this for one spwanpoint, and then copy paste the routes to the others...

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What I feel is desired by some ( me for sure ) is some type of random battle generator along the lines of the Battlefront stuff. Making this feature would of course require a lot of coding and would in my opinion, place ProPE in more of a game area then a trainer. The Mil version doesn't need this option as the instructors can create what is needed for the students to be taught and can include anything they see fit or relevant for the material being covered as the mission unfolds in the classroom in real time. Need a surprise unit at that hill to see if everyone was listening?  Bingo, the instructor makes it happen. We don't have the luxury of a "dungeon master " in PE so a random scenario generator would be awesome. 

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5 minutes ago, CalAB said:

What I feel is desired by some ( me for sure ) is some type of random battle generator along the lines of the Battlefront stuff. Making this feature would of course require a lot of coding and would in my opinion, place ProPE in more of a game area then a trainer. The Mil version doesn't need this option as the instructors can create what is needed for the students to be taught and can include anything they see fit or relevant for the material being covered as the mission unfolds in the classroom in real time. Need a surprise unit at that hill to see if everyone was listening?  Bingo, the instructor makes it happen. We don't have the luxury of a "dungeon master " in PE so a random scenario generator would be awesome. 

 

Actually for me I think the way the mission editor is actually not bad at all.  It may take a bit of work at first but once you say create an entire route system for a platoon of tanks, or a platoon of mech infantry etc., you just copy that route and paste it for the other platoons in the company or battalion and then just adjust those routes appropriately for those platoons running around in different areas.  I've found that it works really well for the large number of units I tend to have in the missions I create for my single player play.  To reiterate, concentrate on one route with all the variables, battle positions, randomness etc. and then copy that route and past to initial way-point of other units in the scenario.

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16 hours ago, Chaosduck7 said:

is there any way to have their AI kick in instead of manually mapping possible routes? 

 

Our design principle is to let computer-controlled units do the "reptile level" of intelligence (like adjusting a hulldown position, prioritizing targets. etc.) while leaving tactical decisions — all tactical decisions — to humans. Be they players, be they mission designers. Only humans are competent to decide about unit spacing, formation, fire control orders, and appropriate tactics for any given route. Plus where the route should go for maximized chances of tactical success.

Only humans can make tactical decisions with contextual knowledge. Only humans can apply different doctrines within the tactical context, depending on what kind of an enemy (or non-enemy) each party is supposed to represent.

 

 

If you think you know ways to let computers make all these decisions in a competent and convincing manner, please write me an email. I might hire you as an A.I. specialist at a considerable annual fee.

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22 hours ago, Chaosduck7 said:

Im only interested in playing single player, so I would have to design a lot of the missions for myself to play.

 

To sidetrack a bit, you certainly don't have to build all of your own scenarios. This site has a great download section for scenarios for singleplayer use. I highly recommend going through the extensive library, finding some you like, and trying them out. 

 

For me, building scenarios is meant more for sharing them. As the designer, you will always know what the enemy is going to do, no matter how random you make it. This makes sense, as the designer is for all intents and purposes the Enemy Commander when the AI is controlling the enemy. Playing someone else's scenario adds in that bit of unknown that makes it unpredictable. Will the enemy follow strict Soviet Doctrine? Will he attempt an envelopment? Will he use his recon assets poorly? You get the idea.

 

 

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The thing I am already loving about scenario editor are the "what would happen if?" modelling possibilities. Some examples:

 

1. What if Hind attack helos, using traditional tactics, came up against modern IFVs?

2. How would a Western enemy cope if faced with an enemy with a monopoly on ICM and UAV surveillance?

3. What would the impact be of non line of sight capable ATGW on armour tactics - conversely what tactics work best for non line of sight ATGW teams?

4. What mix of weapons would be optimal to interdict a supply convoy along a road in a forest?

 

And so on.

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2 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

 

To sidetrack a bit, you certainly don't have to build all of your own scenarios. This site has a great download section for scenarios for singleplayer use. I highly recommend going through the extensive library, finding some you like, and trying them out. 

 

For me, building scenarios is meant more for sharing them. As the designer, you will always know what the enemy is going to do, no matter how random you make it. This makes sense, as the designer is for all intents and purposes the Enemy Commander when the AI is controlling the enemy. Playing someone else's scenario adds in that bit of unknown that makes it unpredictable. Will the enemy follow strict Soviet Doctrine? Will he attempt an envelopment? Will he use his recon assets poorly? You get the idea.

 

 

 

 

Yeah im just worried il exhaust all the good scenarios quickly.

 

Also I love russian/soviet gear more than anything and there seems to be a lack of T72/BMP missions out there. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me ask this question, is there any of you that is mainly a single player gamer that makes their own missions/scenarios and enjoys it?

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1 hour ago, Chaosduck7 said:

Also I love russian/soviet gear more than anything and there seems to be a lack of T72/BMP missions out there. 

 

They are there, but you sometimes have to search. The BMP-2 just became fully modeled in 4.0, so there will be less scenarios focused on it than the T-72. Here are a few I found that should get you started with your scenario collection:

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/files/file/1891-in-motion-2654/ 

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/files/file/1803-boyevoy-razvedyvatelniy-dozor-2640/ 

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/files/file/1809-russo-turkish-battle-t-72m1-2640/

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/files/file/1876-soviet-advance-2640/

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/files/file/2231-niinisalo-the-underdogs-3023/

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/files/file/2454-krasny-oktyabr-heroesrar/

 

Edited by Mirzayev
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14 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

 

Thanks a lot!

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What about using the spawn zone/drain? I just tried it with civilians (apparently what its meant for), and the civilans are walkingm around/driving around routes by themselves. 

 

 

Is there any downside to using this for vehicles/infantry? Surely there must be since no one mentioned it

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4 hours ago, Kingtiger said:

Yeah it only work with civilians, not infantry or none-civilian vehicles. 

 

You can spawn anything using the Spawn/Drain zones. 

 

I will sometimes use spawn/drain zones to simulate an enemy attack. It is good for randomizing units and spawn locations. 

 

I've also used spawn zones to simulate insurgents patrolling a city/town. 

Edited by Apocalypse 31
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I've used the spawn/drain regions too.  Use half the map for spawn on the opfor side and place the drain off map behind your own forces.  Templates make it real quick.  Add in some placed stuff with random variables and in a few minutes you have a ready made scenario.  You just have to make sure you pick a clean map, not to many natural obstacles.  Unfortunately behaviour for spawn/ drain is just move, nothing else.

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2 hours ago, CalAB said:

I've used the spawn/drain regions too.  Use half the map for spawn on the opfor side and place the drain off map behind your own forces.  Templates make it real quick.  Add in some placed stuff with random variables and in a few minutes you have a ready made scenario.  You just have to make sure you pick a clean map, not to many natural obstacles.  Unfortunately behaviour for spawn/ drain is just move, nothing else.

If i do this and i pick say....50 units spawned, does that mean if i kill 3 units it will spawn replacements to keep it topped off at 50 and replace the 3 that i killed? Effectively would the enemy have an infinite force?

 

is there a way to make it finite so one i kill all 50 thats it?

Edited by Chaosduck7
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Sounds like a great way of generating a target range, if there was some way of making the units that spawned have zero ammunition.  On that note, is there any quicker way of doing that than manually clicking the numbers down for each ammunition type for each individual vehicle? It would be great if the fields could simply be overtyped rather than having to use the arrow keys.

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2 hours ago, Chaosduck7 said:

If i do this and i pick say....50 units spawned, does that mean if i kill 3 units it will spawn replacements to keep it topped off at 50 and replace the 3 that i killed? Effectively would the enemy have an infinite force?

 

is there a way to make it finite so one i kill all 50 thats it?

You can set the spawnable units to be finite, but there are pre-set limits in the mission editor. 

 

If you select 50 units to spawn then 50 units will spawn If you kill 3 then 47 are remaining. Be careful, if you set the spawn limit to 50 and set the unit as a tank platoon then 50 tank platoons will spawn. 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Apocalypse 31 said:

You can set the spawnable units to be finite, but there are pre-set limits in the mission editor. 

 

If you select 50 units to spawn then 50 units will spawn If you kill 3 then 47 are remaining. Be careful, if you set the spawn limit to 50 and set the unit as a tank platoon then 50 tank platoons will spawn. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hmmm i just tried it but it always keeps respawning the ones i kill

 

 

 

 

 

I tried setting a time limit to stop spawning, like 5 minutes but after the time is up, it actually removes all the units it spawned. 

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