The future. Do we want to live in it?

[Marko]

Stephen Hawkins warning about the dangers of AI.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/ai-could-be-worst-thing-for-humanity-hawking/ar-AAj9Lok?li=BBr5KbJ&ocid=AARDHP

[dpabrams]

On 10/19/2016 at 3:20 PM, Gibsonm said:

Resistance is Futile.

We will all be assimilated...........................SKY NET is real Bro's!

[ChrisWerb]

On 17/10/2016 at 11:39 PM, Ssnake said:

 First and foremost however it's a bad idea to isolate the player from his surroundings; you occasionally want to grab your glass of cola (or other carbonated sugar water) --- which is a terrible, terrible idea to do in the presence of pricey electronics while you are effectively blind and disoriented.

 

Sensor fusion as on the latest military sights/vision devices. Have the image of the real world overlaid over the virtual one with the latter ghosted apart from any object designated to be critical. Alternatively, any object emitting heat - a cup of coffee, cat, the missus etc. is not ghosted and glows bright red. Whilst  you're waiting for the year or two it will take for that tec. to cross back over to the gaming world, order yourself a Camelbak.

Edited October 21, 2016 by ChrisWerb

[Ssnake]

Well, that would be immersion-breaking augmented reality. Virtual reality, as a concept, demands an isolation from the real world, and I think that Oculus, to name an example, is actually quite successful with it.

[ChrisWerb]

7 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Well, that would be immersion-breaking augmented reality. Virtual reality, as a concept, demands an isolation from the real world, and I think that Oculus, to name an example, is actually quite successful with it.

 

One reality augmentation that could presumably be coded would be a signal when your tank was fatally hit that could set off a powerful firework, crow scarer or 12 gauge blank inside an empty steel drum next to your work station. You could add a some rags soaked in diesel to fill the room with smoke, hopefully giving you time to bail out before you asphyxiate. Then again, you could simulate the tank collective NBC system with a full-face mask scuba rig, but anyone walking into the room might think you were playing an entirely different kind of "simulation" and you might have some explaining to do. You're in Germany though, so that probably wouldn't raise too many eyebrows.

[[]_--__[]KITT]

It's almost certain that WW3 will break out between 2016-2030 if not between 2016-2021.

 

None of our plans will matter. Just in case I'm wrong, please resurrect this thread on January 1st 2031. More likely the whole server dan its data will be wiped out as will we.

 

It was nice posting on the forum.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2016 by []_--__[]KITT

[Captain_Colossus]

Sounds fun in theory, as with all things it probably gets old. Then that will raise the bar for World War 4 to be that much more mind blowing. People always are never satisfied, that's the whole cosmic joke.

 

Are we not already in a world war? If you accept the premise that no one is going to declare the start of it, and that it won't necessarily be the World War 3 people thought about in retrospect if it happened like from 1945-through the 1980s, look at the state of the world, it's not hard to get there. If it just looks different than  we all thought it was going to be, that is to say, it's a different animal than anyone over the age of 40 prepared for, it's not a bad argument.

[Maj.Hans]

Quote

The future. Do we want to live in it?

 

I'll answer this directly...

No.  I do not want to live in the future.

 

I'm not worried about technology, or AI, or even nuclear war with Russia.  If the world goes nuclear, it'll be over quick enough and that will be all she wrote.  AI is no different than nuclear weapons or nuclear power.  It's a metaphoric genie in a bottle, that needs to be controlled and contained very carefully and diligently.

There's also no guarantee that an AI that becomes sentient and self-aware will automatically become hostile towards humanity, so even if we screw up and create a sentient self aware AI we might be able to coexist peacefully with it, or even to form a beneficial relationship.  If anything, "SkyNet" style hostilities seem unlikely if only due to the somewhat...bad...Effects of EMPs on computer systems...

 

What worries me is cultural change.  The way I see it, for a long time now many cultures across the globe have been getting along through a process called "integration".  That's a fancy way to say we learn to 'get the f*** along' by exploring our common ground and values, and figuring out a peaceful way to resolve our differences.

 

Recently, however, there has been a huge influx of immigrants into Europe who seem insistent that Europe must let them in because they're running away from a horrible country, and that Europe must change to become just like the place they just left.  I'm concerned that they're going to force Europe to change, and that the next place that gets forced to change is going to be North America.

 

I was born in the late 1980s.  Sometimes I wonder if my life would be better now if I'd been born in the early 1970s, and experienced the 1980s in person instead of through movies, television, games, and nostalgia.  By the time 2016 rolled around, and I started thinking that the world was going to hell in a hand-basket, I'd already be looking forward to retirement and probably already have had children.  Instead, I have to sit here in 2016 and ponder things like "Is it ethical for me to start a family if I think that my children are going to live through the downfall of western civilization?"

[Gibsonm]

22 minutes ago, Maj.Hans said:

I was born in the late 1980s.  Sometimes I wonder if my life would be better now if I'd been born in the early 1970s, and experienced the 1980s in person instead of through movies, television, games, and nostalgia.

 

Nope.

 

I was born in the early 60's (just as someone was building something in Germany).

 

The next thirty years was spent concerned about nation states destroying the world and wondering if it was fair to bring children into this mess.

 

The last twenty have been spent worrying about "nutters" and non nation states with the same potential outcome but without the "checks and balances" of the earlier MAD scenario.

[ChrisWerb]

I was born in 1965 and really like 2016. We (the UK) seem to have managed immigration very well (we let in vastly fewer Middle Eastern immigrants/migrants as a proportion of our population than Sweden for example), although I think we could let more unaccompanied child migrants in. I like diversity up to a point (not homophobia, honour killings, bombings etc.) and I don't see immigrants destroying our culture, although one particular religion has elements that are proving resistant to cultural assimilation. I wouldn't be surprised if that changes over time as successive generations are born here - we have already had one radical cleric whose daughter turned into a nightclub dancer. I guess the fact that my family on my father's side descend from recent immigrants (from E. Europe), that I lived and worked as an economic migrant in Belgium for 5 years, and that I'm married to a Dutch woman may have something to do with this. Change happens - the trick is not to let that change be sudden and overwhelming.

[Marko]

1 hour ago, Gibsonm said:

 

Nope.

 

I was born in the early 60's (just as someone was building something in Germany).

 

The next thirty years was spent concerned about nation states destroying the world and wondering if it was fair to bring children into this mess.

 

The last twenty have been spent worrying about "nutters" and non nation states with the same potential outcome but without the "checks and balances" of the earlier MAD scenario.

I had/have the same concerns.

But the  small proportion of nutters don't concern me too much. at present

What concerns me more is world over population too many people not enough resources

Can only have one outcome long term.  (probably not in my life time, and hopefully not my children's)

 

 

[Ssnake]

While this is very close to the edge of political discussion (see forum rules), I think that the threat to Europe is vastly overstated, and that we're underselling the attractiveness of our culture to others. Rule of law, quality of life, personal liberties - it's all top notch particularly in Western Europe, and things are notably getting better in Eastern Europe as well.

I'm not afraid of the Islamofascists. They are too few, and they have nothing to offer as far as cultural pull factors are concerned - except for frustrated individuals that cannot cope in a competitive individualized society; plus, I think that's often overlooked, ISIS offers "free sex" both to the men joining the gang with slave girl trading, but also to young women because (if they don't go there as slaves) they can actually pick the men THEY like rather than the arranged marriages that are often still in place with traditional muslim immigrants.

 

The problem is, I think, that we have become so accustomed to our liberties and quality of life that we take them for granted, and do not recognize the tremendous soft power that goes along with it, so we can no longer utilize it effectively. But at the same time there is progress on pretty much all fronts. Over the last century we have changed a world population where 80% lived in absolute poverty to a world where now only 20% live under such appalling conditions. The world income distribution no longer shows a sharp divide, but is approximating a classic bell curve, indicating that all over the world a middle class is emerging. The air in London today has a better quality than ever since the 14th century. Our rivers are becoming cleaner.

Are there still problems?

Of course. But I think that over time we'll solve them. Likewise, we have barbarians at the gate (ISIS), and we're killing them. It's not as if they are winning this war. Their reign will be remembered as short, and brutish. Pretty much everybody can see what kind of quality these bastards are.

 

Also, let's not forget that every immigrant to Europe won't leave the place untouched by it. You cannot fully isolate yourself from the society in which you live for at least a few years. Here they can observe a society that, despite its faults, simply works. That will leave an impression, even if they realize that Europe is not the paradise they dreamt of, and if they are honest they will realize that they left their placers for very good reasons. Not every case of immigration will be a success. But the people of Germany at least still muster tens of thousands of volunteers to handle the influx of immigrants. We care. And I'm quite confident that this will leave an impression. Just think of the latest case of a bomb maker that was arrested by Syrian refugees and then handed over to the police. That was a double victory - not only was the bomb maker arrested before he could kill anyone, it was done by the very group of people who are often treated with suspicion even though they have first hand experience of the kind of people that ISIS are. Who, if not them, would know what would happen if we left the world to the barbarians?

 

The filter bubbles of social media make it much more difficult to keep a cool head. I'm staying away from Facebook and Google as much as I can, just so I can still pick my own news sources rather than being fed by reinforcing algorithms that effectively do nothing but to sharpen the opinion divide. You don't raise a child by always giving it exactly what it wants, yet that is the strategy of these information brokers.

[Marko]

The world should help the Syrians and others its morally right.

But where do we Europeans draw the line, some EU states are in a much better position financially to help then others.

From what I am reading even the German peoples desire to help refugees is beginning to wear thin.

To this day I am trying to figure out what the hell the major players were thinking when it came to the middle east

If it was there intention to destabilise the region good job. Iraq Libya Syria Sudan and very nearly Egypt

In what way does this benefit anybody . with the exception of arms deals and manufacturers

The poor unfortunates living in those nations have seen no improvement in there quality of life some are in a worse position now then they were under the dictators. and we in Europe get to look after millions of refugees.

Money that should be spent making Europe more competitive.

Not saying the major players are responsible for all that happened but there's no doubt they fuelled the fire.

If this post is deemed to political admin please delete it.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by Marko

[ChrisWerb]

3 hours ago, Ssnake said:

plus, I think that's often overlooked, ISIS offers "free sex" both to the men joining the gang with slave girl trading, but also to young women because (if they don't go there as slaves) they can actually pick the men THEY like rather than the arranged marriages that are often still in place with traditional muslim immigrants.

 

Someone should tell them that Daesh has a compulsory FGM policy for all women, regardless of age. You go there, you get cut.  It's not 100% certain this is actually the case (it's very hard to verify any information coming out of there), but the likelihood of its truth given the prevelance of this vile practice in that part of the world ought to make it a severe deterrent.

 

https://orchidproject.org/isis-reports-of-caliphate-carrying-out-fgc/

 

PS: The ban on political discussion here is totally justified. I wish we'd had it at tank-net.com from the outset. We lost more good posters over this than anything else.

 

Edited October 25, 2016 by ChrisWerb

[Marko]

16 minutes ago, ChrisWerb said:

 

Someone should tell them that Daesh has a compulsory FGM policy for all women, regardless of age. You go there, you get cut.  It's not 100% certain this is actually the case (it's very hard to verify any information coming out of there), but the likelihood of its truth given the prevelance in that part of the world ought to make it a severe deterrent.

 

https://orchidproject.org/isis-reports-of-caliphate-carrying-out-fgc/

 

PS: The ban on political discussion here is totally justified. I wish we'd had it at tank-net.com from the outset. We lost more good posters over this than anything else.

 

I agree first and foremost this is a site dedicated to an armour simulation.

Therefore political comment should not be imposed on members who just want to read about the sim and armour related subjects . but I also enjoy a good debate may be we should emulated the SIM HQ approach and have a sort of PWEC

[ChrisWerb]

Snake made a good point about potentially putting yourself in the trap of a social media bubble including only people who agree with you and reinforce your opinions. I intentionally keep my friend-base pretty diverse to avoid that.

[TankHunter]

No, the future sucks. Jobs will become scarcer as AI improves (truck divers and cabbies will probably be among the first to get hit by this new industrial revolution), which will lead to second order effects that the rest of us can only guess at (hint, its unlikely to be pleasant if the 1800s are any guide). The US seems to be on a self destructive streak, and the clash of civilizations will worsen as the Saudis continue to spread their concept of what true Islam is.

[Captain_Colossus]

Short order cooks beware:

 

http://factor-tech.com/robotics/17437-robot-chef-that-can-cook-any-of-2000-meals-at-tap-of-a-button-to-go-on-sale-in-2017/

 

Older workers sometimes need to supplement their incomes or have to scrape and compete for low wage jobs with teenagers as line cooks and this sort of thing. But the problem is solved if you just remove humans altogether. Sure. It's always been the case that humans get priced out and become obsolete as technology progresses, the Industrial Revolution demolished all sorts of occupations and cottage industries that people had for centuries, a father shoemaker taught his son the trade and so forth, no longer, factories do it cheaper in mass. That's what people are facing now, people will all but have to be associated with technology from birth or it's going to be hard to earn a living as the cost of living goes up but without matching wages. Already kids are learning programming in school, that's probably going to have an effect on the going rate for programmers when everyone eventually does it. Creating a top heavy society like this is going to be a tricky problem to deal with. What you're seeing is Darwinian evolution in action- no way around it. We are evolving to the point of making members of our own species obsolete within just a generation or two, competition simply culls the species, never mind what people consider affluent, the bar for entry level into what is middle class or 'average' is getting raised.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Captain_Colossus

[Fincastle]

Yes, Earth, our planet, what a wonderful place,    ..at least up until humans got involved with it.

 

Makes you sometimes wonder what the Human Race is collectively working towards really.

 

Because I'm sure we haven't stopped to think about that yet.

 

?

[Captain_Colossus]

Before Darwin, before Mendel's work and any understanding of genetics, there was a position laid out by a pessimist named Schopenhauer. What he did was explain in metaphysics  (which does not mean spiritual or anything New Age as some people might take that to mean) that life itself in pre-Darwinian concepts looks like this: life itself is the representation, or the front end of a blind, insatiable, malignant Will. One might think one has will of his own, but one is simply at the mercy of the Will- one's feelings, one's actions, one's desires are the mechanisms by which the Will propagates itself; all of us together collectively are the actors of the Will, irrespective of the individual or his fortunes or anything like this. The Will does what it takes, so when people say things like 'life finds a way,' think what that means- that implies even the most callous and indifferent position to suffering or misfortune for the Will to survive, if necessary. Simply watch animals predating on each other in videos on Youtube and see for yourselves, simply watch the way humans assess and evaluate one another in terms of: what can this person do for me; the way life behaves is in plain sight, there's no mystery to it save for the people who obscure it for this reason or that.

 

So even the people who are motivated by wealth or what have you to disrupt others are really just the agents of the Will, not even necessarily free agents themselves; the Will doesn't have any particular care or concern at the individual level like that, they are behaving according to the Will which moves them to behave. In poorer societies which probably resemble more of humanity in the past, people tend to have large families, which is a reproductive strategy because mortality rates tend to be high. Affluent societies tend to move in the opposite direction, more resources and safer conditions means more can be invested in the individual- and these are also where these technologies and services are coming from which sort of cull out those people or conditions not adapted to the new reality. Wars may have been the way humans have eliminated competition for mates, resources and so on, but it's in a sense obsolete for states which can obliterate each other with nuclear weapons, however, there are other ways for the Will to manage the species as it's done simply by making people obsolete as the species progresses and evolves, those who can't or won't adapt are discarded. In other words, 'progress' is achieved in positive and negative terms, not everyone can win, some will have to lose and that's all she wrote for them. Can we prove this in scientific or genetic terms? Perhaps not, that's why it's called metaphysics, it's a thought experiment, an argument as to describe how it behaves in non scientific language, but it is a provocative way to explain matters which concern us here. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Captain_Colossus

[Lt DeFault]

Sounds kind of Buddhist.

[Ssnake]

Buddhism seems to be a wee bit more optimistic and less nihilistic to me.

[Captain_Colossus]

Quite. Schopenhauer arrived at his conclusions independently of Eastern cultures, but around this time a great body of Eastern culture was made available to the West through trade and things like this, and educated Western men of the time were in awe of what they encountered, including Schopenhauer, even Thomas Jefferson.

[ssidiver]

No, it's the mice!

 

Just this week I heard of a 'study' in logic, apparently based on the number of possible universes. Their conclusion was that it was highly unlikely that life as we know it evolved, in this universe. So we must be in a simulator run by someone else.

[Captain_Colossus]

5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Buddhism seems to be a wee bit more optimistic and less nihilistic to me.

 

Certainly ascetic. There are different Buddhist strains, or sects, if you like. But the concept of Nirvana in Buddhism translated means to extinguish like a flame is snuffed out. The idea being the way out of the curse is to deny the Will (although Will is not per se a Buddhist concept)- 'say no to life' in an over simplistic sense. The basic curse of life is that desire propels us all- but desire is unfulfilled. When you don't have a thing, desire makes us want, when we get it, before long, we want something new. Therefore, desires are always unfulfilled, and that's life's inherent trap to make us individually and as a species want more- by being slaves in a sense to this desire.

 

Deny attachments- denying even the pleasures which are the carrot and stick incentives that life offers which makes us still not see the world for what it is but rather compel us to still participate, that's the idea. The end state is a kind of nothingness, that's the breakout of the curse of something-ness (even before we ever existed, none of us had any complaints about that). Most if not all ancient religions have the same idea- that life itself is wretched, that's why they always have these transcendental ideas, concepts or other-worldliness as incentives or as consolation prizes, you die, you go to paradise in return for the hardships endured in this life and this sort of thing. Ancient people weren't stupid, they saw the world around them and the misery and how ephemeral and transient and painful life was. It's not hard to see why. Many people of course don't see it this way, but older cultures tend to have a different view about life than younger ones.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Captain_Colossus