Noob with noob question: cant get started because I cant see anything

[Guest Nailer]

Hi folks

I'm really interested in learning SB Pro PE. I've always loved tank sims. I have SB Pro PE loaded up, and it runs fine. However when I get in game, every view seems to constantly revert to looking "up". I can't see anything but the turret shut when I go to gunner (I assume that is the quick flash I see). I can't move the view with the mouse when in the gunner station as I can when in the external view.

I'm still reading the manual. But I would think the first couple chapters, or the first couple tutorials would walk one through the model of viewing different perspectives. I've tried all the keys, zoom in, zoom out...I can't see anything.

When I click to goggles or scope, it also seems to be looking at the ground, or up. And I cannot control it.

Also, anyone have a Cougar HOTAS profile for SB PRO PE?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help. I'm sure it's a simple fix, and a noob error...but I'm baffled by how complex the view controls seem to be.

[GH_Lieste]

If you unplug your HOTAS does the view control behave correctly to mouse inputs?

If it does it would implicate one of the switch controls.

[Guest Nailer]

Intereting theory. I'll check that out.

But the view works fine in external free-look (external view > left click mouse > look around). Is this a different control?

And I'll also check the view mapping. Didn't think so to see if it was tied to a hat. Though even if it was, none of those controls are being used or touched at the moment. So I wouldn't think a signal should be coming from the Cougar..but you never know.

Thx I'll see if that's it.

[Ssnake]

At least it is the "No. 1 reason" for the symptoms that you describe. There is often a mouse emulator or a button that is stuck in a position where it "autofires" a certain keyboard command. This then tends to override any other steering commands that you are giving.

[Guest Nailer]

Will be able to check it in a bit.

To confirm, when I go to the gunner station should see something right? Not just a dark inner wall of a tank, right?

Thx

[Sean]

Depends on the vehicle. In some of them you have to either hit the gunners view key twice, or hit the gunners view key once, then click on the gunsight to see it.

[Ssnake]

If it's all dark around you, try F2...F4.

[Tacbat]

Also, anyone have a Cougar HOTAS profile for SB PRO PE?

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=8298

[Guest Nailer]

Thx for the tips guys. The view seems to work now. Apparently it had something to do with the Palm Switch, which I do not know yet what that is (haven't gotten that far in the manual...been no need so far). And thx for the Cougar profile link.

I'm just about ready to call it quits and either return this sim or sell it. I know that sounds petty, but hear me out. I'm perfectly willing to spend time learning a complex sim (I've learned and re-learned Falcon 4.0 many a time and enjoy it each time).

But this thing seems as if it were designed to prevent you from playing it.... I get the view working (boy I'll NEVER use Palm Switch, as its only purpose seems to be to throw the gun sight into the air so you can get killed by the AI). But, I just don't get this sim.

Instant Action - I feel like I should be able to jump into IA, move around, find a target, and try to learn to hit it. Just playing around, exploring, and learning. My goal tonight was to fire the gun at least once and THAT didn't even happen. If I move to crest a hill, I get killed. So I skirt along the hill and into some cover. I turn the turret...remembering someone posting about having to hit the key repeatedly to simulate turning a crank, I induce my already hearty carpel-tunnel and hit the arrow keys. FINALLY, after turning and turning I get the enemy in sight. I press the fire button (space)...AND....nothing. Nada. Nothing happens.

So I exit and review the controls. Shft-Space is manual fire. Ok, sweet. Reload (tick tock...why does it need to reload? I'm loading the same mission I just played??). I repeat the above, find the enemy, and shift-space......AND NADA. lol What the heck is this? A tank sim with no bullets?

Do I really need to read the entire manual before I can even fire the main turret in an M1A1????

I dunno..normally I have a lot of patience for this stuff. And normally I enjoy learning the complexities. But this thing is driving me nuts. And the tutorials? Rubbish. A long scrolling box of too-small text, and then that is all the instruction you get. No one speaks to you while in-tank. No pointers are given for the commands and controls you need to learn. Nothing. Tutorial mode seems a lot like any other mode except the "kill the noob" triggers are turned off.

Maybe I'm just frustrated. But every time I've sat down to learn, I can't, because the sim does things that make no sense and thus steepens my learning curve a GREAT deal for the simplest of tasks.

For example, why is it when one switches to the driver, one does not have driver controls? I think I can steer. But I can't control speed or fwd/rev controls. In fact, the only thing switching to the driver view does is put the tank in reverse until it hits something. Is that what really happens when you sit in the tank driver's seat in the real world? It goes in rev at max speed and just keeps going? Being a tank driver must be a horribly unsatisfactory job if that is the case.

And why is it that when in instant action, when I spot an enemy, some unknown force takes over the sight, the gun, and the driver and the tank just takes off. It makes a few poorly placed shots on it's own, and then I get killed.

This would be as if I were running a combat flight sim, and the plane suddenly decided to fly in a different direction towards an unintended enemy and just start firing (poorly) and get me killed. Doesn't make any sense.

Maybe this isn't for me. I was hoping for an enjoyable tank simulator. I wanted something different. I enjoyed tank sims of the past (if you can call them sims, M1 Tank Platoon and Steel Thunder had a bit of depth, but still just games). But I can barely tell that I'm even in a tank in this sim, much less what to do with it. The usability of the software and UI is worse than anything I've ever seen (and usability design is what I do for a living, so I've seen a lot...this takes the cake I think). Ie...the UI is non-existant.

Ok, no menu controls (besides reloading, or seeing an icon of the tank position). If no menu controls then put me inside the tank so I can look around. Nope.. You are either looking through a sight, a portal, or at nothing in particular (the tank in the 2nd tutorial has a view (f8 I think) that looks at a red handle which does nothing. Nothing is active in this view, so what is the purpose of it?).

So no menu, and I can't get a simulated view of sitting IN the tank and clicking around at the controls I need. Ok.... ummmm.... I dunno...I guess I'll let the AI do everything and act solely as commander? But I didn't want that. I don't want to lead my unit. I don't want to coordinate massively complex map movements.

I want to operate the tank. I want to drive it. Use the map to navigate. Search, ID, target, and fire....that's what I wanted.

Is this less "first person tank sim" and more "armchair commander sim"? I can't tell. The first bits of the manual offer nothing about the TANK. (the "Beast" in Steel Beast, I assumed). It just goes on and on and on about commanding units. Selecting units. Finding units on the map. How to use the map. etc. Maybe it is "Cartography Beast" ?

I know I may sound harsh, but I'm frustrated. Why has this been made so difficult to use, learn, and enjoy? I wanted a complex and absorbing simulation, not a complex and frustrating interface. I have to hit the arrow key a hundred times to move the turret 15 deg? Why? That's ridiculous, and unrealistic.

Anyway, I know you guys love this thing and enjoy it. I wish I knew what you know. Because right now I just can't see this being any fun at all. I don't mean to be so harsh... It's probably a great sim, and from the little bits I've been able to see, I can tell there is a lot of depth. But GETTING to the depth should not be so hard. The sim should allow the user to get to the depth, and then enjoy the immersion and complexity. Right now I just feel lost with no recourse other than to read the manual 5 times, memorize it, and hope that at the end of that at least some of this makes more sense.

Not even sure if I'm asking a question here, or cathartically venting. Maybe I'm asking "should I just give up?"

[GaryOwen]

Before you give up, please try this:

Go to teamspeak and have someone talk you through the first few gunnery tutorials.

[Ssnake]

Instant Action isn't the best way to familiarize with SB Pro. You should already be familiar with gunnery before you try that.

The best ways are

a) Find a tutor online (and this community is helpful)

b) Go through the gunnery tutorials in the intended sequence. They start with trivial tasks, and explain the background, then gradually get more complex (and explain more background knowledge).

Switchology in SB Pro actually is rather simple, mastering tactics is where the actual challenge is. Again, Instant Action isn't the best possible scenario again because it's just a shooting gallery (where the targets shoot back).

Test your gunnery skills on the firing range. Once that you can consistently achieve a gunnery rating of above 80% you can assume that you know how to gun with all systems working. (Still knowing how to gun with some components failing - well, that's a matter of training, but is not essential to start having fun with it).

Admittedly, the M1 3D interior is not yet fully functional; you still need to rely on hotkeys - please accept our apologies for this, we ran out of time (eventually we're going to add this, however). If you want to see how it works when everything is as it should be, check out the Leopard 2A5.

[Guest Nailer]

Thx for the responses and encouragement.

Ok, I guess I'll have to print out or write down the long lists of complex hot keys for each tutorial, so I know what it is I'm trying to learn (since the tutorial mode seems to end once one enters the tank, as there is no further instruction). I can't learn anything by flipping back and forth between the simulator and the briefing. The amount of data in the briefing is too much to remember. I guess it is time to break out the notepad.

I skimmed through the remainder of the manual last night. Maybe I missed it but it doesn't seem to cover shooting very much. 3/4 of the manual is about the map, and how to move units, follow routes, etc. The other 1/4 is about tactics. I think at least a chunk of the manual should be about the tanks, and the controls for each. But that seems to be absent.

I still feel like this a top-down strategy/command simulator, rather than a vehicle simulator. Even the manual reads like one spends most of their time in the map view, coordinating and commanding.

I guess I just need to spend more time with it. I wasn't anticipating such an unnecessarily steep learning curve. I knew this was a simulator, and a battle trainer, and used by the Armed Forces to train, etc... But I got really disappointed last night when, after finally getting the view working, I go to fire and nothing happened.

So can anyone answer my questions from above?

-is this is more of a map/command sim than a tank vehicle sim? where do you spend the majority of your time once you have unlocked the mystery of things like "how to fire the gun"?

-how do you fire the gun? keyboard chart, control menu, and tutorial text say "space" and "shift space" fires the gun. But obviously that is wrong because I pressed those keys many many times and nothing ever happened. No error was reported that I'd pressed an inactive command, or that the command was received, or anything. Just nothing. Doesn't make sense.

-why does the tank go in reverse when i move to the driver view? Why can I not control the fwd/rev action of the tank from the driver view? All of my joysticks are disconnected and I unnmapped all the joystick commands for now, so that cannot be the cause in this situation.

-why does the tank suddenly have a mind of it's own and start driving and shooting by itself in instant action?

[RENEGADE-623]

Thx for the responses and encouragement.

I guess I just need to spend more time with it. I wasn't anticipating such an unnecessarily steep learning curve. I knew this was a simulator, and a battle trainer, and used by the Armed Forces to train, etc... But I got really disappointed last night when, after finally getting the view working, I go to fire and nothing happened.

So can anyone answer my questions from above?

-is this is more of a map/command sim than a tank vehicle sim? where do you spend the majority of your time once you have unlocked the mystery of things like "how to fire the gun"?

-how do you fire the gun? keyboard chart, control menu, and tutorial text say "space" and "shift space" fires the gun. But obviously that is wrong because I pressed those keys many many times and nothing ever happened. No error was reported that I'd pressed an inactive command, or that the command was received, or anything. Just nothing. Doesn't make sense.

-why does the tank go in reverse when i move to the driver view? Why can I not control the fwd/rev action of the tank from the driver view? All of my joysticks are disconnected and I unnmapped all the joystick commands for now, so that cannot be the cause in this situation.

-why does the tank suddenly have a mind of it's own and start driving and shooting by itself in instant action?

ok, first, what tank are you using? I know the M1 if the gun is over the rear deck , it wont fire, that isnt a bug thats how it really is in real life. I dont know bout the other ones ccause i only mainly use the bradley and M1. In instant action, are you inside the tank or are you viewing from outside the tank in observer mode? that can explain why it is moving and shooting on its own, when you arent actually in the gunners or tc's seat, the ai takes control of the tank. in drivers view, u control the movement of the tank using the joysatick or same keys as when not in the drivers seat, difference being you cant lock it u have to keep pushing the button. I notice you said it goes backwards when you go to drivers view, with joystick unplugged. May I suggest, if you have another keyboard, try switching out the keyboard and see if it still does that? now of course dont go buy a new one just to test it, but maybe you know someone who will let you borrow one if you dont, as I dontr have that problem and i pretty sure no one else does either, but keyboards after time do have a tendency of wearing out certain keys. I go thru 1 or 2 keyboards a year normally. Im not saying that is your problem, but it could be a cause of it. Dont give up on the sim tho. It is worth the time it takes to learn it. Ive been playing it since the original came out, and if i had given up because i couldnt figure something out, I wouldnt be here right now, and my problem took me months to figure out when i finally broke down and asked. dont laugh, but my problem was I couldnt figure out why i was hitting targets with ap, but when heat was loaded i was always firing way short. it took me months to figure out that even tho the puter selected heat, i still had to select heat to get the sights in sync. and this coming from a bradley crewman for over 12 years in the us army. but i had the mentality that the puter should do it. But listen to ssnake and the others too. Go on teamspeak, specially on the weekends, there is always someone there that would be willing to help you when needed. I would myself but my wife dont let me play as often as I used to before I was married. Heck, if she had it her way, I would never play this again. If you want to get used to firing trhe gun without anyone firig at you, you can download a multiplayer scenerio that is head to head and just go on i and practie just firing the gun and stuff like that and getting used to the controls, thats what I did.

[Ssnake]

Ok, I guess I'll have to print out or write down the long lists of complex hot keys for each tutorial, so I know what it is I'm trying to learn (since the tutorial mode seems to end once one enters the tank, as there is no further instruction).

We're planning to create a series of videos in the future that would do a bit "show & tell" - but I agree, dynamic voice-overs would be better. Please keep in mind that we have to work on a shoestring budget. OK, that doesn't help you much, but the realities are what they are. We get by with the contracts that we get from Armies, but they haven't discovered the value of top notch tutorials yet.

I can't learn anything by flipping back and forth between the simulator and the briefing. The amount of data in the briefing is too much to remember. I guess it is time to break out the notepad.

Even better, find a helpful mentor in the online community. He could give you really individualized feedback.

I skimmed through the remainder of the manual last night. Maybe I missed it but it doesn't seem to cover shooting very much.

We decided to skip that part since the tutorials are plenty and cover the shooting part well. Plus, if we change something in the simulation that affects the shooting, tutorials can be updated faster than a printed manual.

I still feel like this a top-down strategy/command simulator, rather than a vehicle simulator.

Well, it's supposed to be both. Most of our (army) customers are using SB Pro as a tool for tactical instruction and education, some are also using it for crew training. The pure gunnery training part actually was added to the simulation as some sort of an afterthought since we already had a pretty good ballistic model and we wanted to add a bit of trigger pulling fun.

The point is, SB Pro is primarily designed as a training tool. One can still have fun with it, don't get me wrong here, but we don't market it as a game (and charge a relatively steep price even for the Personal Edition) because we want to discourage impulse buyers who expect a vehicle-centric "Battlefield 2". SB Pro doesn't attempt to be that, and some of your observations are a direct consequence of the circumstances and design preferences that we were forced to make in order to find a business model that would allow us to work on this for a decade now (and hopefully another).

is this is more of a map/command sim than a tank vehicle sim? where do you spend the majority of your time once you have unlocked the mystery of things like "how to fire the gun"?

It depends a lot on your preferences. In single player missions that are limited to the "sub-company" level the most frequently used position, I think is either the commander's place or the external observer's position. There are however people who limit themselves exclusively to the gunner's position, which is fine as long as all movement of all vehicles (both red and blue) are already scripted in a reasonable way.

Other people like the command & control element, and tend to play more from the map view, and to spend more time in the planning phase than actually executing the battle. SB Pro can accommodate both, though not necessarily with the same scenarios.

Sorry to be a bit vague here, but really: Much depends on individual preferences.

-how do you fire the gun? keyboard chart, control menu, and tutorial text say "space" and "shift space" fires the gun.

...provided that you are looking through a sight, that the commander doesn't override you, that the gun is loaded. So, go to the gunner's place (F6), then look through the primary sight (F2), click the mouse once to gain control over the view (or grab your joystick), and press space (or pull the joystick trigger). You should get a bang then.

-why does the tank go in reverse when i move to the driver view? Why can I not control the fwd/rev action of the tank from the driver view?

Sounds odd. If, as you say, no game controller is connected to your computer, something seems to be really wrong. Normally you'd press W to accelerate, S to stop, X to decelerate (or to go in reverse). With a joystick, you can also use the stick (or a steering wheel with gas/brake pedals) to drive the vehicle.

-why does the tank suddenly have a mind of it's own and start driving and shooting by itself in instant action?

It shouldn't, unless you have placed a movement route in the map view; also, the vehicle's driver will adjust the vehicle's position automatically if an enemy is present to minimize your vehicle's exposure (and hence to improve your chances to survive).

I'm surprised about all the things that you are reporting. It may well be that there is a really serious misunderstanding, or a hardware issue that creates all kinds of mischief.

[GH_Lieste]

There is still a joystick problem here..

In driving position the stick controls movement, and the tank drives backwards by itself..

With palm switches engaged, the joystick controls movement and the view points up at the ceiling, or the guntube elevates to max elevation. The current work-around has been to revert to manual cranking of the turret with palm switches disengaged, but without the palm switch engaged the gun isn't firing.

Solutions:

Recalibrate the joystick. Ensuring that both primary axes respond fully, and are centred when the stick is released.

If you want to use the hand cranks then switch the FCS to manual mode first using the / key.

Work through the tutorials. You can at any time view the instructions by switching to map view F5, and then clicking on the briefing tab.

There are two tutorials that do not function as intended, Bradley reloading, and Leopard 1 Pano sight, if others appear non-functional you may need to ask on teamspeak or here for advice.

[Ssnake]

Good points.

Alt+J and Ctrl+J also do joystick related stuff. Once re-centers it, the other reverts the Y axis (I can't remember which is which, but you'll figure it out eventually). You may also want to increase or decrease the dead zone, if you find things not responding well.

[Tacbat]

Nailer,

What timezone are you in, and are you around this weekend?

[Volcano]

For M1A1 walk through / information, go here:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php/M1A1(HA))

...some crazy person typed up the whole vehicle manual to help out new or struggling M1 users.

[alpha6]

this would be a newb question not Noob

[alpha6]

If all that dosen't work out I'll buy it on ebay from you for 12$

[Sean]

a6: Very helpful comments.

Nailer: Hopefully you can let us know if you are getting along ok.

[Itkovian]

Oi, I really hope he hasn't given up.

Reading his posts and seeing how long ago they were made was gut-wrenching, like watching someone driving off a cliff and being unable to tell him to stop. This sim is so good, I hate to think he gave up because of the issues he was having.

He clearly had significant technical issues going on here, which it would seem he tragically assumed they were normal features of the sim, and didn't realize they could be fixed and completely change his experience.

Lord knows my first SB Pro experience was pretty ugly, but I could definitely point the gun and shoot (and miss miserably), and had none of the issues he reported.

The worst part is that, reading what he said he expected the sim to be, it turns out that it does provide all he expected. It is a first person tank sim, but also happens to have far more depth. It is a shame his difficulties prevented him from experiencing even the basic features.

Let us hope he did not give up, and his silence is due to his working through the technical issues and enjoying the sim too much.

Itkovian

[Itkovian]

Looks like he hasn't done anything since the 9th. Is there a way for the admins to contact him (email and such) and see if he still needs help (and direct him here if he does)?

I'd hate for someone to lose out on this experience due to technical issues.

Itkovian

[Tacbat]

Is there a way for the admins to contact him (email and such) and see if he still needs help (and direct him here if he does)?

Itkovian, you can always send him a PM.

[Itkovian]

Certainly, but wouldn't that simply show on his forum account? Since he hasn't done anything since the day he made his last post, there's little hope he would happen to check the forum again (unless the last activity date on the account only updates when a post is made).

Itkovian