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What Makes a Vehicle "Destroyed"


Mirzayev

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We have all been in the situation in Steel Beasts where a SABOT round is fired into the side armor of an enemy vehicle, an explosion happens, the turret flies off in dramatic fashion, and it is obvious that the tank has been destroyed.

 

However, what about situations where a round impacts a vehicle, the vehicle is considered destroyed, yet there is no dramatic smoking or explosions to make that suggestion. A situation like presented at the bottom of this post.

 

I thus have two questions:

 

1. What factors are used in determining if a vehicle is destroyed? Is it a complete loss of operability? The death of the entire crew? Or (most likely) a mix of the two? 

 

2. What would be the effects on the M1A1 pictured below, in regards to the systems, and the crew?

 

Looking at an interior cutaway of the M1A1, I can guess that in the above photo, in regards to the crew the driver would certainly be dead, the Gunner, Loader, and Commander would suffer amputations at best. For components, the Powertrain Compartment would certainly suffer heavy damage, in addition to a large number of the turret's systems being rendered INOP. In short, the tank and its crew are no longer a factor for the enemy on the Battlefield. 

 

SS_10_12_10.jpg

Edited by Mirzayev
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3 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

If the entire crew is "incapacitated", then yes, Steel Beasts rates the vehicle as "killed". With both mobility and weapon damage, it is considered no longer "operational" (per scenario script control logic) even if the crew is still alive.

but is the vehicle "destroyed" if the engine and main gun are destroyed ? How did the M1A1 above get destroyed ?

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Like I said, if armament and mobility are damaged (but at least one member of the crew is still active), a vehicle isn't considered "destroyed", but "not operational" per scenario control logic.

 

How the M1 got destroyed, I cannot seriously conclude from nothing but a single screenshot. However, assuming that the round killed the driver and then proceeded to cast enough debris/fragments into the crew to also "incapacitate" all turret crew, that would already be sufficient to let Steel Beasts rate it as a "vehicle kill".

 

 

Now, there. I have repeated pretty much exactly what I wrote before, just in different words.

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2 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Like I said, if armament and mobility are damaged (but at least one member of the crew is still active), a vehicle isn't considered "destroyed", but "not operational" per scenario control logic.

 

How the M1 got destroyed, I cannot seriously conclude from nothing but a single screenshot. However, assuming that the round killed the driver and then proceeded to cast enough debris/fragments into the crew to also "incapacitate" all turret crew, that would already be sufficient to let Steel Beasts rate it as a "vehicle kill".

 

 

Now, there. I have repeated pretty much exactly what I wrote before, just in different words.

My bad, i was not that sure what you had meant but now i understand. Thanks !

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I haven't checked to see if this has been updated in 4.0, but in 3.xx there were four specific things that caused a vehicle be considered not operational:

 

  • Track damage
  • Engine damage
  • Out of fuel
  • Two crew members disabled, not counting the driver

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/9622-what-damage-causes-a-vehicle-to-not-be-quotoperationalquot/?do=findComment&comment=139062

 

Edited by Rotareneg
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Just checked and that's still the same in 4.010. Those are the only conditions that trigger a vehicle to be not operational. It can have no functioning weapons, optics, driver, etc. and it'll still be "operational" as far as the game logic is concerned.

Edited by Rotareneg
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Interesting thread. The scale and depth of SB Pro continues to amaze me.

 

So would it be fair to say "Mobility Kill", M-Kill,  criteria in SB includes at least one of the following Tracks, Engine/Transmission, Fuel loss and Driver casualty?  What additional criteria result in a "Complete Kill", K-Kill?

 

Perhaps a definition of "Tactical Kill", T-Kill, should be considered here to describe the state where a unit is mobile but unable to fight due to enemy action (as opposed to forgetting to reload at the right moment!).

 

So when my AI TC calls a target as "Stopped!" , does this mean observed M-Kill,  but not explicitly T-Kill or K-Kill confirmed? Is a coup de grace shot always needed, or a waste of ammunition?

 

It is a pity that crew injuries are not triaged (without being gratuitously grisly) to Light (Aid Station), Serious (CasEvac) or KIA. It is not clear in 4.0 if the Medic CSS units are "patching-up" crew or if a new crew are magically being provided to replace a depleted crew (a fairly unrealistic option, given the time needed for replacements to be brought forward, and for crews to train together). Perhaps replacement crew are only available in the easier settings. I am still learning the details. So many, many details...

 

A tank being able to take a hit that disables/kills the driver, but does not render the tank itself undrivable, eg with smashed instruments/controls, seems far-fetched. A medic unit can trundle up and sit along side for 15 mins and full driving functionality is restored.:)  Likewise a hit to the turret which disables  the fighting compartment systems and/or crew, leaves the vehicle mobile, so the driver can drive the vehicle back into a defilade position or into available cover.   Would a driver actually even attempt this, rather than immediately bail out and try and get his woulded comrades out of the vehicle, because it might catch fire and brew? Just saying.

 

Sometimes a damaged vehicle can be driven all the way back to the REME for an overnight refit/resupply/recrewing. Which, if not realistic, is very handy in some scenarios, and certainly makes it very worth while to keep CSS units safe and available. However doctrine seems to imply that CSS is pushed *forward* in Phase IV, Recovery, of an operation, so having "permitted" repairs set in the mission editor is the method for keeping us honest, it appears.

 

Thanks for any wisdom shared.

Trackpin

 

Edited by Trackpin
typos
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If your Commander identifies a target, it means the vehicle is not destroyed. As such, regardless of the damage or injury of the crew, the commander will always direct fire onto vehicles not classified as destroyed. Unless you have very specific guidance to bypass the vehicle, I would always make sure it is destroyed before continuing.

 

A driver being injured/killed is not always based on having damage to the controls. For fun, drive a tank into a tree at top speed! You will certainly get crew casualties, simulating concussions from slamming into the tank's hull, trees falling on unbuttoned crews, etc.

 

I think the CSS works for Steel Beasts. In real life, it might take days to replace a wounded or dead crewman, or repair damage to the tank. The current system is a good compromise. Using CSS can actually restore some of your lost combat power, but it will take a significant amount of time of the scenario to do so. 

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Hi Mirzayev,

 

Thanks for that. Help me a little further. If you fire on a target and appear (from the GPS view) to have hit it, what does each of the following Ai TC calls mean:

a) The sight remains on your target and the TC calls "Target" (Does he want me to re-engage, lase, fire? Did I miss entirely or did I hit but not kill tgt?)

b) The sight remains on target and the TC calls "Stopped" ( as per earlier post; M-Kill, yes, but T-Kill or K-Kill too?)

c) The sight remains on target and the TC calls "Go On" ( simply fire another shot, assume I hit, but did not kill, tgt?)

Depending on which order is issued, should a new firing solution be made, ie lay, lase, lead, fire?  Or if target is static, should the same FCS setting be used and simply another shot taken? Unless a correction is called should the FCS be left alone? Or is there sufficient variation in the flight of the projectile that there is something to be gained from trying a new solution anyway?

Lot of questions there. Hope this make sense.

 

Love the crew vulnerability modelling. Hummers are especially good a getting wrapped round palm trees, and clipping walls. I am reminded of the statistical fact that a peacetime exercise of the scale of the Gulf War I, would have been expected to produce more casualties (mostly in traffic accidents) than the actual operation did.

 

Roger the CSS point. It is very cool to model the logistics/recovery, even if simplified and condensed temporally.

 

Trackpin

Edited by Trackpin
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Not an issue. I'll go in order.

 

A: "Target" means you successfully hit the target. It may be a catastrophic kill, or it could have bounced off; it has no regard to damage done. 

B: "Stopped" means that the target is considered destroyed, and to cease fire.

C: "Go On" means that the target is still alive, and your TC wants you to continue shooting. 

 

Deciding if you want to get a new firing solution is a bit based off of experience that you will get from playing Steel Beasts. It varies from situation to situation. That being said, if both you and the target is stationary, I would try to observe where the round is hitting the target. If you are getting solid hits, or if you are unable to identify the target well enough, I would maintain the same solution. If you are hitting low or high, and you can reliably get a correct lase, I would relase before firing. If you aren't able to get an accurate lase, I would take the range currently entered, and manually put in a range either slightly higher or lower based on where the rounds are hitting. Small adjustments are key; too much and you will fire short or over. 

 

To give a practical example: in todays Kanium Game, I was directed onto a tank that was located on the other side of a woodline and behind a destroyed BTR. My first round was confirmed as a hit by the TC, but did not kill it. I kept my exact same settings on the FCS, did not move the barrel, and continued to fire. It took three rounds, but I was able to kill the tank. Certainly not idea, but I was not in a position to maneuver to a different area to get a better line of sight. 

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Mirzayev,

Thanks for the tip. It is a very good tutorial and I have played it through *several* times. ;) Hitting the target is not the problem, and I still think the Dragon is pretty ineffectual on the first T90! Sometimes it takes eight hits to kill it. (Actually the RBS70 hold the record of 15 shots before a turret ring kill shot)

Assuming I was doing it all wrong, I delved into FM 3-23-24 (2001). And there was the answer, in black and white.

M223 INERT ROUND

Blasted QMS muppet must have gave me boxes of blue ones not green ones, clearly.

 

I wish.

 

The answer IS in the FM which states max effective range 1000m, preferably <800m, and that tanks shoud not be engaged in a frontal arc of 60 degrees. Which explains first why the other tanks in the training mission can be killed from the sides and rear without too much difficulty. And secondly why the sight picture is correct for 1440m , the actual range, and the stadia marks clearly show the T90 to be out of effective range. The effective range also seems to reflect the time required to reach the target and hence the time the target has to shoot back at you. The HEAT warhead will be as effective at 1500m as at 800m if it hits at all, as it is not a kinetic energy weapon.

 

Stung by the suggestion I had skipped the tutorial..  I re-ran it with the Dragon, fully expecting to run out of time before clobbering that pesky T90 wabbit. First shot. Clang! (scratched the paint and commander) Second shot. Clang. No effect. Third shot. Boom! Turret off. The full monty.

Stunned, I reviewed the AAR.

 

This one I will print out and title the "Vampire Fish Shot". After a nastly little Amazonian critter. Google it and wince.

Trackpin Out

Vampire_fish_shot.jpg

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13 minutes ago, Trackpin said:

Mirzayev,

Thanks for the tip. It is a very good tutorial and I have played it through *several* times. ;) 

 

Not that I have a fragile ego, but a comment to that effect on the file wouldn't hurt. :)

 

Almost 70 people have run it and no one seems to have an opinion.

 

Also if you aim at say the lower plate, or near the hull ammo storage, you can get kills fairly regularly.

 

Shooting at the turret front / manlet will yield expectedly poor results.

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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Mark,

Would give it a five but can't figure out how to leave review. Can see panel for comments but how do I activate it?

Thanks for the aim point tip. Should have reviewed the T90 anatomy in more detail. Assume ERA defeats HEAT warheads fairly consistently. 

Quick Q: Can ATGMs in SB shear a track/running gear? Experimented in the Tutorial, but did not M-Kill target. But maybe this is just how you set up the target?

Trackpin

 

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Um not sure re comments - maybe that's why no one has left any? :)

 

As to aiming:

 

1. If you shoot at the same place twice things usually go well - 1st round strips off ERA, second round hits "naked" armour.

 

2. Can certainly genrate M-kills if you aim at engine hot spot when flank on. So try it on the right to left "movers".

 

I suspect they will damage suspension / running gear if that's where they hit, but I haven't checked - maybe something to do tonight. :)

 

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36 minutes ago, Trackpin said:

Mark,

Would give it a five but can't figure out how to leave review. Can see panel for comments but how do I activate it?

 

Not sure.

 

Unsure how long you need to wait to see this or if its only available for "Scenarios" as opposed to "Tutorials", ...

 

I had a look at a scenario I downloaded and this was on the screen:

 

Feedback.PNG

Edited by Gibsonm
Replaced poor screen shot
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