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What Makes a Vehicle "Destroyed"

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1 hour ago, Trackpin said:

Assassin  7,

Thanks very much for your info.

I agree battle/collision damage is a totally diffeent issue due to the mechanical stress incurred. In a nutshell; swamping the hull does *not* break the Main Gun. My point exactly. Surely manual traverse/elevation mechanisms still function and optical sights still work without power?  A further question, is the firing pin servo operated , so can the gun still be fired without electrical power?

As you have a working knowlege of the systems, would you care to hazard a "total time" for drying out a swamped AFV in a SB wartime scenario?

FWIW I am being vague about specific vehicles in case this is an Opsec issue.

Trackpin

Primary Optical sights do not work without turret power. The Gunner would have to use his GAS sight, it doesn't need power. The Azimuth manual drive is mechanically driven and the Elevation manual is hydraulic driven within its own loop which meets up with the main hydraulic system in the elevation mechanism and separating by a valve. The m1a1 will fire with no master power ,only using the blasting machine/ master blaster. The SEP has to have to main gun armed to fire with no master power also using the master blaster. A swamp tank would have to be cleaned out and serviced before even consider powering the tank but a tank can take in water going into the turret basket if all the connections are tight. If the turret is under water and the tank was running when this happened it's really hard to say what components would be shorted out, but your engine would blow for sure.    I'm sure you would loose master power too due to the battery box full of water.

Edited by Assassin 7

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1 hour ago, Trackpin said:

Assassin  7,

Thanks very much for your info.

I agree battle/collision damage is a totally diffeent issue due to the mechanical stress incurred. In a nutshell; swamping the hull does *not* break the Main Gun. My point exactly. Surely manual traverse/elevation mechanisms still function and optical sights still work without power?  A further question, is the firing pin servo operated , so can the gun still be fired without electrical power?

As you have a working knowlege of the systems, would you care to hazard a "total time" for drying out a swamped AFV in a SB wartime scenario?

FWIW I am being vague about specific vehicles in case this is an Opsec issue.

Trackpin

As far as SB, IMO SB is the most accurate and closes Tank Sim that you can get to the real tank. If they modeled all the possible damages and faults that could happen in real life believe me it would not be fun.

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1 hour ago, Assassin 7 said:

As far as SB, IMO SB is the most accurate and closes Tank Sim that you can get to the real tank. If they modeled all the possible damages and faults that could happen in real life believe me it would not be fun.

Copy that.

I would just like to see  the Main Gun repairable the way that the Engine or any other system is after a dunking! I am sure the times listed are an approximation, so why not approximate a figure for the Main Gun?

If there is no simple way to set this in the unit option logic (actually there is not much in Wiki about this and the User Manual is a bit skimpy too), then maybe it will have to move into the wish list thread in Support.

Thanks for your insights.

Trackpin

Edited by Trackpin
addenda

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I think the key issue is the time required.

 

An engine lift is approx 40min to say 1 hr - within the span of the average SB scenario and achievable by first line (M-88, etc.

 

However a damaged main gun as indicated earlier requires 1 days work at the workshop + transit to and from which is outside that "average scope".

 

There is no base workshop area simulated, 150Km+ to the rear on the map.

 

If you ask them to track the time taken its basically a waste of CPU cycles.

 

Similalrly we don't track the time taken to re-weld the hull if it is severely damaged, etc.

 

At best you end Scenario 1 with the damage and then commence Scenario 2 (X hours / days later) with the damage repaired.

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1 minute ago, Gibsonm said:

I think the key issue is the time required.

 

An engine lift is approx 40min to say 1 hr - within the span of the average SB scenario and achievable by first line (M-88, etc.

 

However a damaged main gun as indicated earlier requires 1 days work at the workshop + transit to and from which is outside that "average scope".

 

There is no base workshop area simulated, 150Km+ to the rear on the map.

 

If you ask them to track the time taken its basically a waste of CPU cycles.

 

Similalrly we don't track the time taken to re-weld the hull if it is severely damaged, etc.

 

At best you end Scenario 1 with the damage and then commence Scenario 2 (X hours / days later) with the damage repaired.

 

Mark. With respect, no. To my mind the issue is differentiating between mechanical/battle damage as described and illustrated by Assassin7, requiring 21+hrs of servicing work, versus whatever seems appropriate for a vehicle accidentally immersed in a river/body of water. If the turret is not submerged, as per my screen shots, then there is no assumption that the fighting compartment is even flooded. I absolutely *do* accept there may be electrical damage, and SB seems to model this already with multiple, but repairable, systems failures. Given the Engine repair comes in at 360mins (rather than your 40-60mins actual), then an equally generous allowance to dry off the Main Gun is warranted. In a short scenario the vehicle would be considered out of action for the duration, and sensibly abandoned for theoretical post-action recovery. SOP.

 

For a longer scenario, it just seems illogical that the Main Gun cannot be dried out with the rest of the vehicle. It is arcane so I will experiment with the Repair If option to set a time in proximity of a REME unit to trigger Main Gun repair. It would be neater if an expression could be devised to set the time taken for Main Gun Repair to the depth of water the vehicle was in when the Engine quit.

 

Copy your point about the typical SB mission length. Ditto rolling over "recovered" vehicles from Scenario 1 to "repaired" vehicles in Scenario 2. I concur that if designing a rapidly developing, mobile combat scenario for classroom use, then asking the protagonists to think about recovery is probably a distraction. However the beauty of SB is that is can be used to simulate many different operations and goals, even logistical ones.

 

Many thanks for your comments

Trackpin

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On 09/02/2017 at 2:36 PM, Trackpin said:

Given the Engine repair comes in at 360mins (rather than your 40-60mins actual) ...

 

Ah sorry for the confusion.

 

The 360 is probably repairing the power pack in the vehicle.

 

The 40 - 60 is the repair vehicle swapping out the power pack (for a spare carried on the rear deck and the gun tank going on its way).

 

For example: http://www.primeportal.net/recovery/jussen/leo2_leo2a5.htm

 

The power pack is then repaired when the repair vehicle returns to the 1st line CSS location, where it normally drops the broken one off and collects a fresh powerpack to replenish its on vehicle "spare".

 

On 09/02/2017 at 2:36 PM, Trackpin said:

I concur that if designing a rapidly developing, mobile combat scenario for classroom use, then asking the protagonists to think about recovery is probably a distraction. However the beauty of SB is that is can be used to simulate many different operations and goals, even logistical ones.

 

Unless of course the unit 2IC / XO is a "protagonist". So once you get to Platoon level and higher, someone is thinking about Log issues.

 

Log doesn't just happen :) and a key outcome for training scenarios is for planners/students to realise that they need to manage Repair and Recovery, Ammunition consumption, medical, etc. as an integral part of the plan.

 

A logistically unsupportable plan is a fail. :)

 

On 09/02/2017 at 2:36 PM, Trackpin said:

Many thanks for your comments

Trackpin

 

You're welcome. :)

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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On Thursday, February 09, 2017 at 4:55 AM, Gibsonm said:

...

 

 

 

 

A logistically unsupportable plan is a fail. :)

 

 

You're welcome. :)

 

Always a bummer in CPXs: there you stand at the map your fist smashes enemy BNs with arty, your hand marks swathes of land to be blocked with mines and tip of your finger routes the 200 miles your BG is to advance. Everybody cheers and happy with the plan...then the S4 spoils the fun with a simple:"we can't do that Sir."

Edited by Grenny

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On 2/10/2017 at 4:46 AM, Grenny said:

Always a bummer in CPXs: there you stand at the map your fist smashes enemy BNs with arty, your hand marks swathes of land to be blocked with mines and tip of your finger routes the 200 miles your BG is to advance. Everybody cheers and happy with the plan...then the S4 spoils the fun with a simple:"we can't do that Sir."

 

Maneuverists love the idea that "Sustainment should support the Maneuver Plan," but sometimes a plan is just not logistically viable. In my experience, lack of effective communication, followed by poorly planned logistics, are the two biggest factors contributing to failure. 

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On 2/1/2017 at 4:37 PM, delta6 said:

I shoot them until they start smoking or brew up...Both are good indicators that the target is no longer useable..:D

Not a good method. Especially in the gunnery practice section. You can pump a zillion rounds into some tanks and they will never smoke or blow up. When I was in the M60A1 our TC was responsible for announcing "Target Destroyed". He did it on the CVC helmet to the whole crew. Wish SB had that feature. 

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1 hour ago, Deputy276 said:

He did it on the CVC helmet to the whole crew. Wish SB had that feature. 

 

Well he will say "Cease Fire"

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