Jump to content
12Alfa

THE RETURN OF FIRST CLASH

Recommended Posts

Be still my beating heart!

 

Next you'll be talking about:

 

Range Cards

Aiming stakes

Cross Fire

Depth Fire

Troop Fire

etc.

 

Happy to spt the training effort from BG ANZAC if 1 CAD timings aren't convenient (pretty sure the processes are similar, even if the accents vary). :)

 

Edited by Gibsonm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, chrisreb said:

Just jumping in - I would have used mines in open area and had BP more to the sides at say 45 degree angle to OPFOR likely MLA. Whilst I was only Plat Sgt I did not feel that the platoons could support each other given the frontage. If you have T72s barrelling down at you and other plats could not engage I am not sure what you can do - either engage head on or run if dead ground sufficiently near. In either case 30 or so secs is all you have before destruction. With Leo 1's I guess I am saying just put the BPs out of the direct lines of OPFOR advance and try to hit them from concealed positions as they roll by into prepared fixed defences.

Not faulting anyone here,

 

"I did not feel that the platoons could support each other" this is the info the Sqn CO would like to have known, in the orders it was stated to support, so if any Troop could not, this needs to be fixed by either moving your BP, or informing the CO of your supporting issue so it can be resolved.

 

Troop leaders had two points on where this issue could have been fixed, 1- in their map recce, and 2-  when they arrived in their position. Generally as a rule this would have been seen in the map recce (or as in SB the view/LOS tool). I understand some got bumped up to TP LDR so not his fault here.

And I miss reading this? Am I way off on this thinking?

 

"not sure what you can do" The CO can make a call if the info is passed upwards, he could have used (in this case) moved the two west troops (3/4) into a ambush position, fired arty in front of the enemy advance. There were options avab, but without info being sent, your right "not sure what you can do".

 

" hit them from concealed positions "  you are correct in your assessment!!

 

Again not faulting any one.

 

We say in the army, he who has the most tactical info, the quickest, has a better chance of defeating the enemy.

 

I would , and this includes myself,      did we as a SQN really know our orders and conduct our drills to

the best of our abilities, or could we as commander have prepared ourselves better for the mission/BP's ?

 

Myself, I can always do better. I trusted the Troop leaders to place their BP's where they could fulfill out their task, and I trusted them also to make any recommendations necessary to their task to the CO.....I think that that trust had some impact the defeat. And I as the CO will take full responsibility for it.

 

This post like others of mine is to provoke discussion, to learn, to improve our mindset and tactics.

 

I hope none will take this the wrong way, it's not my intent.

 

Edited by 12Alfa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know how much planning time you had before someone pressed "start" but perhaps ...

 

Get the Tp Ldrs to backbrief you on their proposed plan so you can check that they have considered these issues and that one Tp Ldr's plan doesn't interfere with / compromise another's.

 

Then maybe a quick confirmatory Q & A along the lines of "How do you intend to achieve mutual support with X Troop?", "Do you need smoke to cover your withdrawal from BP Y and if so where do you want it and when?".

 

That sort of thing.

 

Of course 20 / 20 hindsight or Monday morning quarter-backing is a luxury you usually don't get, but if you look at this as an iterative process then the "improves" identified here will help were you to run the mission again. :)

 

Edited by Gibsonm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good points as always. The troop ldrs had the orders at least 24hrs ( Started conversation: Friday at 11:27 PM ), we had a lengthy PM's going on, lots of questing, and reply's. Thous my confusion on the outcome of the mission, not complaining, just surprised.

 

Back briefing did not happen, bad on my part  :(. I thought at the time due to the PM's we had a handle on the orders, again my bad. I'll include in next orders sequence.

Edited by 12Alfa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes lots of learnings to take away. I would say that whilst I was not a Plat Ldr I don't think they thought they had the leeway in amending BPs as much as you seemed to allow them in your mind. Speaking for 2A our Plat ldr had an interim position further West where we had a brief pause. With perfect hindsight we would have been better staying there as anything East of that was too open and with enemy advancing from higher ground making hull down impossible.  I certainly do not take any offence at this sort of  discussions. This is one of the reasons I do these sessions.

 

There were plenty of orders right down to Plat level so I don't think that was the issue (ShortnSweet provided platoon with a further 3 page Warno's!). I think plat leaders can take away that they can amend positions more within spirit of the Commanders intent. Again using 2A as an example we should have said ' Cmdr 2A feel BP1 untenable will reposition in West to xxx and we are still in same relative position in defence zone'. Only issue might have meant a relocation of another unit adjacement.

 

Anyway just throwing some thoughts out there.

 

Mark to answer questions re time before start - this week there was an imperative to keep all briefing to 10 mins max

Edited by chrisreb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chris,

 

Ack re timings. I think thought the mass of PM traffic probably covered everything (or at least should have). :)

 

10 minutes ago, chrisreb said:

Again using 2A as an example we should have said ' Cmdr 2A feel BP1 untenable will reposition in West to xxx and we are still in same relative position in defence zone'. Only issue might have meant a relocation of another unit adjacement.

Be careful.

 

You can recommend / suggest.

 

"will" implies you are just going to do it without gaining permission first (ideally an outcome of the backbrief). :)

 

Its the OC's plan and he may have a good reason why you "will not". :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was member of 1A Platoon. Here is are my observations regarding last engamemnt.

Please bear in mind this is intended to be "constructive critic" with the sole aim of improving and with no intent to assign any blame or responsibility to anyone.

I am no professional tanker so all my opinions are from a point of view of a  tanker "enthusiast" :P

 

While the enemy was fielding T-72 B2 1985 with ERA blocks (What year do we suppose to simulate? ) we had the weakest of the Leopard saga available in Steel Beasts. We hit the enemy multiple times at close range producing no damage while the enemy destroyed us with the first impact.

This of course should not be a problem if we employ our Leopards with this factor in mind but our deployment on the last engagement made that the different tank platoons were facing frontal killing zones with no possibility of mutual support between different tank platoons, at least on the initial phase.

The battle position of my Platoon was in an area that did not allowed us to engage the enemy at long range. We could detect the enemy and engage them at less than 800 mts. I would have selected other terrain for a BP under such circumstances.

The enemy played real well. Congrats to the OPFOR. They knew we had no thermals so they used smoke artillery rounds to cover their advance to our more or less prepared positions, forcing us to abandon them and killing us with short range frontal hits while we were retrograding.

Some TOW missiles would have helped us a lot during that phase but I have not seen any, not sure if they were available.


 

As mentioned here on previous posts we could have done far more damage to the enemy if we would have attacked them with lateral hits and inside a kill zone covered by two different tank platoons in well defined positions covering the killing zone from different angles.


 

Considering we do not have thermals and neither the enemy does, for a planned retrograde manoeuvre it would be great to have coordinated some smoke screens support to allow us to retreat in a safer way with our soft Leos. Also a nice TOW defensive line equipped with thermals covering our retreat route would have been a nice surprise to the OPFOR forces coming through the smoke. ^_^


 

Radio transmissions were in some cases too long IMHO. Brevity and radio discipline are always a big plus.

And to end my comments I would suggest we do not launch the server when people does not have the proper assigned vehicles. Trying to sort out in game is really chaotic. it is better to stay in the lobby 2 minutes more until each an everyone is with its assigned vehicle.


 

Said all this, I really enjoy this campaign and the immersion in this historical fiction but that made you feel very close to how the Cold War turning hot could have been

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Furia said:

While the enemy was fielding T-72 B2 1985 with ERA blocks (What year do we suppose to simulate? )

 

"... the summer circa 1984" Page 8.

 

I also believe that this is meant to be a re-creation of the book. I can't recall as I wasn't available to participate and therefore didn't do the "pre reading", but if the book talks about an unsupported Tk Sqn, then that's what I suspect you'll get.

 

Asking for a wish list of assets that may or may not have been available in the book (e.g. TOW screen - pretty sure they are busy with the Mech Inf) is unlikely to happen. 

Edited by Gibsonm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Furia said:

I was member of 1A Platoon. Here is are my observations regarding last engamemnt.

Please bear in mind this is intended to be "constructive critic" with the sole aim of improving and with no intent to assign any blame or responsibility to anyone.

I am no professional tanker so all my opinions are from a point of view of a  tanker "enthusiast" :P

 

While the enemy was fielding T-72 B2 1985 with ERA blocks (What year do we suppose to simulate? ) we had the weakest of the Leopard saga available in Steel Beasts. We hit the enemy multiple times at close range producing no damage while the enemy destroyed us with the first impact.

AAR shows 3 x kia ,  4x damage to all T-72B2,   all under 8oom (est)

2 hours ago, Furia said:

This of course should not be a problem if we employ our Leopards with this factor in mind but our deployment on the last engagement made that the different tank platoons were facing frontal killing zones with no possibility of mutual support between different tank platoons, at least on the initial phase.

The battle position of my Platoon was in an area that did not allowed us to engage the enemy at long range. We could detect the enemy and engage them at less than 800 mts. I would have selected other terrain for a BP under such circumstances.

 

As noted in the above posts, the TP leaders had the option to move their BP's a number of times, before the start, and when in their BP's.

Do you agree that the CO should micro-manage their BP's, if so I can certainly can enforce this, I would like not to though, how ever open to suggestions.

 

The enemy played real well. Congrats to the OPFOR. They knew we had no thermals so they used smoke artillery rounds to cover their advance to our more or less prepared positions, forcing us to abandon them and killing us with short range frontal hits while we were retrograding.

 

Did you also deploy smoke for your retrograding? Was it effective? How can we improve the smoke usage within the Troop?

 

Some TOW missiles would have helped us a lot during that phase but I have not seen any, not sure if they were available.

 

Not in this mission, next one yes.


 

As mentioned here on previous posts we could have done far more damage to the enemy if we would have attacked them with lateral hits and inside a kill zone covered by two different tank platoons in well defined positions covering the killing zone from different angles.

That was the plan as per mission orders/ trace, was this pass down in the troop (understand the last min player move to TP ldr pos)

2 hours ago, Furia said:


 

Considering we do not have thermals and neither the enemy does, for a planned retrograde manoeuvre it would be great to have coordinated some smoke screens support to allow us to retreat in a safer way with our soft Leos.

 

Again you are correct in your tactical assessment. See above post on BP's and their requirements, if the Troop leader (busy most of the time) dosen't tell this commander, speak up with your concerns.)

 

Also a nice TOW defensive line equipped with thermals covering our retreat route would have been a nice surprise to the OPFOR forces coming through the smoke. ^_^

Tows units are a 2RCR, 22 Vandoo's asset, you see them in the Mech Inf missions, If we hold the INF line (missions) the 4 CMBG CO will have the ability to re-depoy his forces as he see's fit, first we must complete the "hold the line" missions

2 hours ago, Furia said:


 

Radio transmissions were in some cases too long IMHO. Brevity and radio discipline are always a big plus.

Yes, I found the comms to be good, no issues on my end. :)

2 hours ago, Furia said:

And to end my comments I would suggest we do not launch the server when people does not have the proper assigned vehicles. Trying to sort out in game is really chaotic. it is better to stay in the lobby 2 minutes more until each an everyone is with its assigned vehicle.

Yes, the issue has been a problem, As Kingtiger (Viking extraordinary) point out, the Troop leaders need to step up a bit more, it's difficult, been there done that, I feel their pain. Herding cats is never easy, and in RL this shit happens at night during black-out drills, people showing up at the wrong AFV due to the non-light, all AFV being camed, and all look the same in the dark, ah the memories  :)

2 hours ago, Furia said:


 

Said all this, I really enjoy this campaign and the immersion in this historical fiction but that made you feel very close to how the Cold War turning hot could have been

 

Thank you for the input, it is of value to myself ,and others. Hoping other Troop leaders will post as well.

Good post mission assessment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My On going AAR of the mission. We talked about the orders, BP's, I would like to discuss GUN FIRE, input again is welcomed.

 

These are est, bare with me Plz.  Taken from AAR, no log file, just for discussion only.

 

# of rounds on TRG (T-72) =25,

 

of that 10 were under 500m (est), 7 were between 500m-1K, 7 were 1k-1.5K and 1 over 1.5K

 

    DAMAGE you caused!

 

 8 rounds on HULL FRONT causing 2x DAMAGE (500m +/_)

5 rounds on HULL SIDE   causing 3x IMMOBILITY (+1000m) and 2x KIA (500m)

 

6 rounds TURRET FRONT causing  1 DAMAGE (5-600m)

2 rounds TURRET RING causing 1 KIA (700m)

 

T-72 KIAby CARL G

 

CONCLUSION?

Flanks shots on target can be effective with ranges under 1.5km.

 

The question we need to address is: can/should  commanders allow the above stand-off ranges.

 

My assessment. I think so, improved planing, BP's, and use of smoke.

 

Open to the floor.............................

 

Edited by 12Alfa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again I wasn't there but ...

 

The terrain didn't seem to lend itself to long range engagements and indeed long range frontal engagements against T-72 with 105mm is questionable (esp. if they were T-72Bs - don't know).

 

I guess the fundamental issue is that you didn't have the force to stand toe to toe with the enemy and engage in a slugfest (indeed Leo wasn't designed for that any way).

 

Therefore you were force to conduct a mobile defense / delay and this is pretty complex at the best of times (no offence to those who did play).

 

You need to co-ord arty /smoke for clean breaks (i.e. call it two mins before you need it to fall).

 

Ensure you have flanking / depth positions to suppress the enemy whilst you make the break etc.

 

Know when to leave (when you have lost one or two vehicles its already too late)

 

Practiced the displacement so that people know what to do in the smoke, noise, confusion, etc.

 

It seemed (again based of a superficial review) that you had all the Troops fwd with no / little depth to provide those covering fires and the artillery wasn't really sync'd (maybe no dedicated FO)?

 

Edited by Gibsonm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

Again I wasn't there but ...

 

The terrain didn't seem to lend itself to long range engagements and indeed long range frontal engagements against T-72 with 105mm is questionable (esp. if they were T-72Bs - don't know).

 

I guess the fundamental issue is that you didn't have the force to stand toe to toe with the enemy and engage in a slugfest (indeed Leo wasn't designed for that any way).

 

Therefore you were force to conduct a mobile defense / delay and this is pretty complex at the best of times (no offence to those who did play).

 

You need to co-ord arty /smoke for clean breaks (i.e. call it two mins before you need it to fall).

 

Ensure you have flanking / depth positions to suppress the enemy whilst you make the break etc.

 

Know when too leave (when you have lost one or two vehicles its already too late)

 

Practiced the displacement so that people know what to do in the smoke, noise, confusion, etc.

 

It seemed (again based of a superficial review) that you had all the Troops fwd with no / little depth to provide those covering fires and the artillery wasn't really sync'd (maybe no dedicated FO)?

 

Good points.

There was a smk plan, you may be correct on having all 4 up, though there was  1k (+/-) spacing from the 1st and 2nd BP's. It may have been to close, though I needed a bit of ground to drop smk, and confuse the enemy entering the 2nd line of BP's.

 

Under standard ADV Guard, following Tank Bat, and there SOP in timings on the march, this should have been a workable plan (with any changes requested by the leadership).

 

There is something I'm looking at tonight in how the ADV Guard moved into, and through our AO, a quick viewing looks like their known SOP is off, RED side may want to chime in here and give his perspective on the ADV Guards movement/timings to clear it up.

 

On the SQN side, I have noted for clarification  the back briefings, auth to adjust BP's, engagement ranges, priority of targets, and use of smoke to improve . upon so far. :)

 

Anywho, a learning event for sure, lots of good comments/idea's coming in here, and PM's. Thank you all

Edited by 12Alfa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, 12Alfa said:

Under standard ADV Guard, following Tank Bat, and there SOP in timings on the march, this should have been a workable plan (with any changes requested by the leadership).

 

There is something I'm looking at tonight in how the ADV Guard moved into, and through our AO, a quick view viewing looks like their known SOP is off, RED side may want to chime in here and give his perspective on the ADV Guards movement/timings to clear it up.

 

Yes I'm not sure I saw:

 

Recon

gap

CRP

gap

Adv Guard (Vanguard and Main Guard)

gap

Main Body

 

Looked everything arrived pretty much at once, or at least very close together.

 

Edited by Gibsonm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Gibsonm said:

 

Yes I'm not sure I saw:

 

Recon

gap

CRP

gap

Adv Guard (Vanguard and Main Guard)

gap

Main Body

 

Looked everything arrived pretty much at once, or at least very close together.

 

We used just

Adv Guard (Vanguard and Main Guard)

gap

Main Body   to ensure timings and ease of play for all. It does seem off, red will comment I'm sure.

 

Edited by 12Alfa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, 12Alfa said:

We used just

Adv Guard (Vanguard and Main Guard)

gap

Main Body   to ensure timings and ease of play for all. It does seem off, red will comment I'm sure.

 

Well red units had to deploy in the deployment area with no triggers or delay which meant I had to hide the forces for blue side.

 

As 12A said we had elements of the advance guard only. Combat Recce / Advanced guard split into to COA with intent to locate ENY, fix and bypass if he couldnt be destroyed...

 

300 meters after our deployment area we where enganged with tank fire and had to hold and bypass on the Northern COA.

 

15 minutes after this elements of the Advanced guard would come into play seeking to fix Northern forces for the main effort along the Railway section in Southern COA.

 

We keept back an entire COY cause after 2-3 blue death we could see something was off in tnk.vs.tnk engagements.

 

We took the Southern city with the Mech COY and secured avenue for COY+ tnk attack to move out in the open and rout blue forces moving back. Red had 1 BTY for Smoke and HE only.

 

Nearing the end we pushed back center forces which enabled us to flank Northern COA opening it up.

 

North:

H+30 - CRP starts moving and are being engaged after 300m

H+45 - Advance Party and additional forces arrive and engage with armor

H+60 - 1x TNK PLT and ENG attemps getting flank support for the North COA

 

South:

H+30 - CRP moves into village along the railroad tracks and encounters inf

H+45 - Advance Party elements start approach while BMP and Inf Work through city

H+60 - Advance Guard Main Body (-tank coy left behind) attacks through city and out in the open with smoke cover and breaks defending tank plt

 

After this its just a steam roll with dead leo,s

Edited by Swordsmandk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

 

Yes I'm not sure I saw:

 

Recon

gap

CRP

gap

Adv Guard (Vanguard and Main Guard)

gap

Main Body

 

Looked everything arrived pretty much at once, or at least very close together.

 

OPFOR didn't advance until approx 30 minutes in to the game, we intent to advance with the Vanguard north iot advance at the best road to our main objective. we issued recce at the southern axis, but got engaged almost immediately when we entered the map. The terrain south was advantagerous for mekinf, so we addressed that early, while we in the north prepared for the assault. the Main guard arrived to the scene approx 20-30 minutes after the Vanguard, and we had then success in 2 axis so we pushed to tk cmb tm forward, one approx in the center and advancing towadr NW and one along the northern road. We moved a lot fast, and had some hits that made our movement less friction than we expected, so we where able to move and attack flanks. We (I) made a mistake at the end to engage Kingtiger in the city, ew should doctrinewise have just arty bombed him and secured the bridge and final objective instead. Learning is that the old Leopard was not even peer to the T-72, in a defense situation. Especially when the defense was less prepared with obstacles and BP. That was just OPFOR's observation. I hope you had a funny, and from the forum a very learning game. We can always replay it another time. KKnispel

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OPFOR didn't advance until approx 30 minutes in to the game, though we introduced pieces of the recce after some 20 minutes, we intent to advance with the Vanguard north iot advance at the best road to our main objective. we issued recce at the southern axis, but got engaged almost immediately when we entered the map. The terrain south was advantagerous for mekinf, so we addressed that early, while we in the north prepared for the assault. the Main guard arrived to the scene approx 20-30 minutes after the Vanguard, and we had then success in 2 axis so we pushed two tk cmb tm forward, one approx in the center and advancing toward NW and one along the northern road. We moved a lot fast, and had some hits that made our movement less friction than we expected, so we where able to move and attack flanks. We (I) made a mistake at the end to engage Kingtiger in the city, ew should doctrinewise have just arty bombed him and secured the bridge and final objective instead. Learning is that the old Leopard was not even peer to the T-72, in a defense situation. Especially when the defense was less prepared with obstacles and BP. That was just OPFOR's observation. I hope you had a funny, and from the forum a very learning game. We can always replay it another time. KKnispel

1417808518-leopard-2-armor-capabilities.jpg.ccfea2169a2f2bf4610ecb8653299e01.jpg

Edited by KKnispel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, chrisreb said:

Great to hear OPFOR viewpoint - thanks

Its is always to have both sides, we will use this format going forward. Think we have covered all points now. If others need to post don't have issue.

 

The next mission will take place south of the 1st mission, just south of Favorite. If you played that mission you will have the map, time to study the ground, so when orders come down you are ahead of the curve. Warning order should be in the hand of O COY CO soon.

If the Ptl ldr's from last mission wish to stay in that role PM me.

 

Stay tuned, the Campaign continues.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ALL Mech Inf units are ordered to return to their base.They were told they were no longer needed to defend the 4CMBG's line. The reports coming in to the media state, moral is very low for these warriors.

113 going home.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have come after many days of complementing options that, First Clash can not carry on with the imposed restrictions placed on its historical settings, and the lack of desire to play not following the core values of the Campaign.

 

It will however continue with mission #3 as intended with the historical concept when a committed server that will will not impose restrictions can be found.

 

It was my intent to obtain a partner that would follow through as agreed format for the Campaign, at this time I/we can not fulfill this basic concept.

 

I will post when a partner(s) have been identified and a workable First Clash can be held for interested players.

 

I apologize, and most importantly take full responsibility for this setback in the campaign.

 

I would also would take this time to say a huge TANKS to those who played and made First Clash a great time in Southern Germany via 1980's battleground.

 

2 1 2 ton.jpg

Edited by 12Alfa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bummer 12A. I appreciate your efforts. It was my first multi player experience after having the sim for 10 years. I'm hooked and look forward to version 2.0 some day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...