Just a few questions on the Fulda Gap and 11th ACR/8th Guards Army

[RomeoNovember12]

Hello,

 

A long time since I last wrote here. I have had a long layoff from SB.

 

However I am working on another Hünfeld scenario. There can never be too many, can there? It is set in the autumn of 1982 with an armored cavalry troop delaying an MRR advance guard. I am looking to confirm a few things with all the knowledgeable people here! I want it to be reasonably historically accurate!

 

I chose 1982 because I understand that the 11th used M60A3 TTS at that time, rearming with M1s the next year. Correct? What about M113s and M901s, would they still be the vehicle for the scouts or would they have been replaced with M3s?

 

It is hard to find sources on the 8th Guards Army at that exact point in time. However what I do find is that the 8th Guards used T-62s rearming with T-80s in the late 80's. Correct? 

 

At the moment my scenario starts just west of Rasdorf with the Red Army advancing along highway 84 towards Hünfeld. Is that reasonable?

 

I am thankful for any help!

 

/Mats

[mpow66m]

I hope you are going to release sce when done

[TSe419E]

If I remember correctly they didn't start to get Bradleys until '85.  In '82 they still would be using the nine vehicle platoons (3 APC, 2 ITV, 4 Tanks).  They still might have been using M60A1s in '82 as there were not that many 'A3s in country at the time.

Edited February 3, 2018 by TSe419E

[D u k e]

Servus,

 

1st Squadron got the first M1 1982.

They changed 1986 from M113A2 to M3 Bradleys.

 

cheers

 

D u k e

 

Source: Fahrzeug Profile Nr.29 11. US-Panzeraufklärungsregiment "Blackhorse"

[mpow66m]

14 hours ago, TSe419E said:

If I remember correctly they didn't start to get Bradleys until '85.  In '82 they still would be using the nine vehicle platoons (3 APC, 2 ITV, 4 Tanks).  They still might have been using M60A1s in '82 as there were not that many 'A3s in country at the time.

what would one have to disable on a A3 for a stand in for the A1?

[TSe419E]

Thermal and dynamic lead.

[TSe419E]

Also, main gun rounds should be 2/3rds to 3/5ths M774 APFSDS and the rest M456A2 HEAT.

[mpow66m]

ok.thnx

[RomeoNovember12]

Thank you!

[Scrapper_511]

In case you didn't know about this reference from the SB wiki:

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=Vehicle_timeline

[RomeoNovember12]

The official US Army history claims that M60A3s were used 1980-1982. I am not sure about the TTS. Did all M60A3s have the TTS?

 

https://history.army.mil/documents/BorderOps/content.htm

[TSe419E]

The first few, I don't know how many, had no TTS.  The ones in the training battalion at Ft. Knox when I was there ( summer of '79 to winter of '80) had TTS.  First 'A3s were made in '78.  Don't know when they were issued for use in line units.

[RomeoNovember12]

I have begun Reading US Army Field Manual 17-95 dated 1977. I doesn't even mention T-64 or T-72. Why is that? Were they not known? Or not numerous enough to be judged a threat?

 

EDIT: However it mentions the T-62 a lot.

Edited February 12, 2018 by RomeoNovember12

[Captain_Colossus]

as i recall, they were still rather unknown to the west- and the differences between the two weren't altogether known yet. superficially they looked similar enough to be the same vehicle to observers. the soviets didn't have a pr program where they introduced them to the world and what you could expect

[Ssnake]

Most of the T-64 was learned from pages of the user manual that Russians used on the shitter, ca. 1983 or so. Some "liaison" officer 'salvaged' them on one of his patrols through Eastern Germany. One manual was once stolen out of a motor pool, the same officer then lost his life trying to repeat that stunt with a T-80 a few years later (1987?). By 1986 the T-64B was recognized as the biggest threat of the Russian tank inventory; the T-80 was still a somewhat mythical beast, the T-72 was (mistakenly) thought of a low-cost T-64 model when in fact it simply was a competing design conforming to the same tactical requirements (just like M1 and Leo 2 can be considered fraternal twins).

[TSe419E]

When I went through basic, summer of '79, they admitted that not much was known of exact details.  T-64s, we were told, were not that many in number, prone to breakdown, dangerous to operate, and therefore mostly used in Russia.  We were told there were more T-72s and how to differentiate between the two but not much else.

[Mogwa]

Here is a TOE for an Armored Cavalry Troop in the early to mid 80s. Hope this helps.

[TSe419E]

Except the mortars were consolidate at the Troop level and not parceled out to the platoons unless the area to be covered was so large the mortars couldn't give effective support to the outlying platoon(s).

 

Reference: ST 17-1-1 (Circa 1981) Volume 1 Pages 252 - 256

                ST 17-1-1 (Circa 1981) Volume 2 Pages 352 - 356

                FM 17-95 Change 1 or Change 2, Page 3-10

Edited March 11, 2018 by TSe419E

[RomeoNovember12]

I’m still working on it. I understand 1GTA and 8GA received its first T-80s in the spring of ’83 and I have set my scenario that autumn. I will have to do some testing to balance the scenario to find RED should have T-62s or T-80s. Which of the available tanks would be the best T-80B stand in? I guess the T-80U would be a little too tough.

[Captain_Colossus]

T-64B

[Ssnake]

...which we don't have, either.

T-72B with ERA and BM-22 would be my suggestion, with a handful of tanks (the commander's reserve?) having BM-26 instead.

[Abraxas]

Excuses that I interfere! The Sowjet Troops in Gemany (GSTD) were equipped with T-64 B and later mostly with T-80 in the 80th!

Here the overviews (Source: Soldat und Technik 11/86):

 

[MAJ_Fubar]

Note that from a practical perspective there is no difference between the T-64B and T-80A/B beyond the T-80's greater speed and somewhat better hull armor.

[Ssnake]

3 hours ago, Abraxas said:

Excuses that I interfere! The Sowjet Troops in Gemany (GSTD) were equipped with T-64 B and later mostly with T-80 in the 80th!

Yeah, no doubt.

The way I understood the question was, what vehicle is the best stand-in for T-64B (which is not available in Steel Beasts) and the T-80A (which is also not available in SB Pro). In this context, the closest match in terms of general performance/capabilities and protection value is the T-72B with ERA even if the GSTD weren't equipped with it.

[Abraxas]

While USSR existed, the GSTD was equipped with tanks made by the Ukraine: T-62, T-64A and T-64B ( all are awailable in Steel Beasts V4!). After the Ukraine became independent, the T-80s came from Russia! The GSTD and the Russian forces in other satillite states had never T-72!