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M1 Ammo Stowage / Reloading

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First, I hope this is in the correct section...

I was googling my way around the Internet to find out WTF was up with the M1A2 slipping in an extra two rounds. I found a page with a nice diagram of the A2 turret stowage racks and details on how the rounds were to be loaded. It seems that the M1 is normally limited to 22 HEAT rounds as they must be placed in tubes with: "Anti-Fratricide Bar Protection"...

WTF is a fratricide bar and why do you need it to prevent a HEAT round from going BOOM! while its still in the rack?

Second:

(Still using SB1 here...)

I understand currently in SB the 120mm tanks are not able to pull a round from the gun and reload, as it is official doctrine to fire the loaded round off rather than reload. Perhaps we could see a few switch options implemented? The only time I see a need for this is to get a Sabot loaded when you have a HEAT or a special type loaded without firing one off, and to select a special type like an MPAT, Cannister, or STAFF loaded without wasting a sabot. And while we're at it, I understand that Leopard2 crews lap load their guns?

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In regards to the latter, the M1A1 restriction *may* be removed in the near future of Pro PE. Originally the restriction was in place because of safety reasons on the real tank, but any TC can order a gun to be reloaded with a new ammo type at his discretion. We feel that since there is no real threat of accident on the Leopard 2 when ammo types are changed, then it is unfair to completely restrict the M1 TC from ordering an ammo change. At some point there will probably be a lottery winning probability of an accident, and then it will be up to the TC's complete discretion.

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Ouch...Can I vote NO on the random chance of catastrophe?

Let me suggest this instead...Rather than a random chance of instant scenario ending and player angering kaboom, implement a few cause/effect things...For example:

Loader breaking routine, gently pulling the round from the gun: Triple the time of a normal reload to swap rounds.

Compartment penetrated while screwing around with rounds: Chance of T-72 style turret popping explosion.

Cartridge case damaged: Further increase in loading time, loss of the round, round is tossed overboard.

Stub base detaches while pulling the round from the gun: Increase in time, the round is either tossed overboard to remove the hazard or the components are crammed back in and the round must be fired to dispose of it.

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We'll see. In principle, any kind of hazard will do - be it a time penalty, be it a component failure, or a catastrophic fire. The question is, how complicated should it become, and would those complications really contribute. I mean, in my short life as a tanker I've seen a misfire, a round that got stuck so badly that it could neither pulled out nor pushed all the way in, so we had to rip off the base stub, remove some of the propellant, squeeze the stub back in and then fire it "somewhere". I've seen a guy burn his paws with the ignitor of a sabot round base stub, and I once nearly got my right foot squashed by the main gun.

Lots of weird stuff can happen. Not everything of it is suitable for a computer based simulation. If there is a component failure that the crew could repair, there should be the user interface means to accomplish it. Yet every additional feature either makes it necessary to further complicate the 3D model so you have things to grab, push, pull, twist, or turn, animations for all the different things that could happen, and eventually even hotkeys. We are approaching a level of complication that is hard to manage.

Therefore I prefer simple solutions. Maybe there will be a 5% chance of "something" going wrong while unloading the gun, with then a 5% chance of fire, a 10% chance of the round getting stuck permanently until the arrival of a maintenance crew, while 85% of the situations will result in a mere time penalty.

From a "rule design" point of view, the important factor is that the player must know that his order may have bad consequences. It's then up to him to decide if he wants to take a risk.

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a 10% chance of the round getting stuck permanently until the arrival of a maintenance crew, while 85% of the situations will result in a mere time penalty.

Do M-1A1s not carry a bell rammer(reamer?) ? This device was carried on standard M-1s and simply screwed onto the gun cleaning rods in place of the bore brush, and was pushed down the gun tube from the muzzle and forced stuck rounds out of the breach. If they do then a stuck round could probably be resolved with a 5-10 minute time penalty as long as the tank remained stationary.

Mog

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I can see that might work with a stuck sabot... but it sure doesn't sound smart with a nose fused HEAT that has already malfunctioned once ;)

Besides which, if the gun has been fired recently you may get a cook off while you are playing with it...

Scary :eek2:

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hell yea, no M1 loader EVER wants to "reload" it just feels scary being near it and Ssnake you have a good point about the heat rounds

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Personally I would be very very very very P'd-off if I were playing through an hour long scenario and was suddenly blown up or knocked out of commission because of some random-chance super-fookup going on while I tried to get a Sabot loaded before creeping through some trees...

I would rather not have speculative explosions... Look, SB punishes you for doing stupid things, but you don't always die. Drive along a road like you're out for an afternoon stroll and you make an easy target. It can be a bad idea, but we don't give you a 10% chance of blowing up because you're doing something stupid.

So lets say that a normal reload takes 10 seconds.

Swapping rounds then might take 30 seconds if everything goes right.

One in ten times its stuck, and you randomly take an extra 30 to 60 seconds as the loader gets the gun armed again.

One in twenty times the stub comes off and your loader takes an extra 15-30 seconds putting it all back together. You then have the choice of firing it off and loading as normal, or hanging onto it to use it later, maybe you didn't want to switch away from Sabot that badly anyway.

One in fifty times, you have the 'really bad effect'. The case breaks open, maybe the powder spills, maybe the bag contains it, we don't care. The effect of this is that your loader takes now an additional 60-90 seconds to throw the damaged round out of the turret and clean up any spillage.

So, worst case scenario, you are unable to fire the main gun for a full two minutes while the crew is screwing around. And for those full two minutes lets assume that there is, in fact, exposed explosives in the turret. So if you get hit, and it's a penetrating or spalling hit, THEN your fancy M1 goes up like a T-72. But at least theres a cause for the effect.

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Personally I would be very very very very P'd-off if I were playing through an hour long scenario and was suddenly blown up or knocked out of commission because of some random-chance super-fookup going on while I tried to get a Sabot loaded before creeping through some trees...

Please re-read what I actually wrote. 10% of 5% are .05% absolute. In one out of 200 cases of unloading a live round a fire would occur. That's rare enough not to happen in each and every scenario, yet often enough to point out that the safety regulation was made for a reason.

There is a serious fire hazard involved in this, and even a simplified model should reflect that. If you want to avoid this risk - easy: don't unload!

Your suggestion of a 2 minutes worst case penalty doesn't come close to what could happen in reality. If you have to use the bore cleaning rod to push out a round which is really stuck, you're going to waste five to ten minutes (after pulling back into defilade position). If you rip off the base stub of a cartridge and the propellant pellets spill out and get in contact with a still hot ignitor of a previously fired round, there's going to be a fire, and if the fire reaches the breech with a full cartridge it's going to be your final barbecue faster than you can say "Holy Shit!". And since the ignition doesn't require oxygen the fire suppression system won't help you either except filling the crew compartment with noxious fumes (but you could care less because you won't live to feel that part of the pain).

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First, I hope this is in the correct section...

I was googling my way around the Internet to find out WTF was up with the M1A2 slipping in an extra two rounds. I found a page with a nice diagram of the A2 turret stowage racks and details on how the rounds were to be loaded. It seems that the M1 is normally limited to 22 HEAT rounds as they must be placed in tubes with: "Anti-Fratricide Bar Protection"...

WTF is a fratricide bar and why do you need it to prevent a HEAT round from going BOOM! while its still in the rack?

As far as I know almost, if not all, of the current M1 fleet has been upgraded to the Heavy Common standard and so should be carrying 18/18 plus 6 in the hull. As for the anti-frat, well since the back turret bustle has a relatively thin skin and the shape of the storage tubes makes them kinda chamber-like...its set up so that none of your buddies catch a errant projectile when your bustle goes BOOM!

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I can see that might work with a stuck sabot... but it sure doesn't sound smart with a nose fused HEAT that has already malfunctioned once ;)

Hence the "bell" shape. It doesnt actually contact the tip of either round. There was also a mandatory waiting period before getting the whole crew shoving a rod up the barrel. Pushing a round out of the reach is better then cruising around the battlefield with a round stuck in the breach. I have used it in an M-1 due to a heat round which had become "swollen" and stuck about 3/4 of the way into the breach. Since it wouldnt go in enough to be fired and wouldnt come back out, the bell rammer had to be used.

I dont know if they carry these now with expendable cartridges as opposed to the full casings the M-1 used. Thats why I was asking someone with actual knowledge on the subject and not google knowledge.

Mog

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I've seen the use of them explained in an old Bundeswehr training film for the M47 (yes, that old), but I can't remember having seen something similar or received training for it during my armor days. Either the round doesn't get armed without the accelerating push of the gun fire (or projectile spin) so the brush is sufficient, or the practice is no longer.

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Well, that's quite the point of explorative learning.

Let the user experiment, observe, and draw his own conclusions. ;)

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I find that it's good when working with HEAT rounds that in the end it's good for you're ass to be in the same zip code as you.

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I utterly fail to understand what you're trying to say here, except that you have a warm und fuzzy feeling for an unknown reason, somehow related to HEAT rounds. Which is kinda bizarre in its own way.

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i remember in the Leo c-2 and the goog old cougar that we used a tool that removed the

small part in the midle of the back plate of the cartrige. After that we inserted a puller in the left open screws and it was used in conjonction with and other part that was hold on to the back of the breech block. We screewed it and the case came off easely, Used it once and it took about 10 minutes. than it was gone to the miss fire pit. Never herd of a puch rod from the muzel doh!!

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I utterly fail to understand what you're trying to say here, except that you have a warm und fuzzy feeling for an unknown reason, somehow related to HEAT rounds. Which is kinda bizarre in its own way.

no... just don't get you're ass blown off... and I'm kinda scared of HEAT rounds:(

oh, and in the us we have zip codes:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZIP_code

Edited by alpha6

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Well SSnake maybe I'm over-reacting but this just seems like the kinda thing thats going to lead into random explosions for other reasons.

"Your loader has fumbled the shell. You die!"

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Well SSnake maybe I'm over-reacting but this just seems like the kinda thing thats going to lead into random explosions for other reasons.

"Your loader has fumbled the shell. You die!"

Well, that is precisely the point. There is some manner of risk involved with pulling rounds out and possibly, however unlikely, busting the combustible case open and spilling propellant all over the hot AFCAPs sitting on the floor causing a flash fire; it has been done before and in real life you do this at your own risk --it is the commander's judgment. But as Ssnake said, a catastrophic event would be extremely rare check in most cases you would get the round stuck in the beach and have to spend 20 minutes or so to get it out. The latter would be the most common malfunction for such action. Too much detail? Possibly, but a good (realistic) simulation should provide a level of consequence for real world behavior that involves risk.

Anyway, indeed I have personally been on a Tank Table VIII and XII range with a round stuck in the breach after the loader attempted to extract one. It took quite a bit of time and work to... "un-stick it". Another reason that this is a common occurrence is that the more rounds you fire in one "fight" or single sitting, the more carbon and residue that builds up in the breech. This can combine with other issues from continual main gun firing to cause a round to stick when attempting to extract. It also does not help if the loader does not put enough "ass" behind his extraction attempt (it is a pop of a handle he puts on the side of the breach that shoves it open and the round enough to grab). Perhaps Alpha6 can describe the round extraction process since he may have some greater insight.

Edited by Volcano
typos

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well as you said, with continual firing the carbon builds up making it stick and so: Depending wether or not the round has been fired, as if it's just an empty shell or a SABOT you can usealy push it out with "the pole" but if it's a HEAT or HE you have to mutch more careful so the first thing to do is alert the rest of the crew, second is to get the bes grip you can most likly on the rim and try to just "put ass into it" and just pull strait back as hard as you can. if it's really lodged in you'll have to "cone pole" it out wich takes at least 8min as not to brake the casing, though I haven't done this in a hostile area :(

Edited by alpha6
typo

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I'm guessing you wouldn't want to either.

So, typically how many rounds could one put through a 120mm smooth without it going tits up?

This could add some flavour to these tank fights.

"What the hell is keeping you Smithers?"

"The f**king thing is stuck, sir."

:biggrin:

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This is just rehashing what Volcano already shared - I think volcano was hoping for you to share from your personal experience.

well as you said, with continual firing the carbon builds up making it stick and so: Depending wether or not the round has been fired, as if it's just an empty shell or a SABOT you can usealy push it out with "the pole" but if it's a HEAT or HE you have to mutch more careful so the first thing to do is alert the rest of the crew, second is to get the bes grip you can most likly on the rim and try to just "put ass into it" and just pull strait back as hard as you can. if it's really lodged in you'll have to "cone pole" it out wich takes at least 8min as not to brake the casing, though I haven't done this in a hostile area :(

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I'm guessing you wouldn't want to either.

So, typically how many rounds could one put through a 120mm smooth without it going tits up?

This could add some flavour to these tank fights.

"What the hell is keeping you Smith?"

"The f**king thing is stuck, sir."

:biggrin:

more like me but what do you mean "tits up" like completly craping out?

sorry sean we almost never used the main gun other than a few HE here and there.

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more like me but what do you mean "tits up" like completly craping out?

sorry sean we almost never used the main gun other than a few HE here and there.

tits up basically means, very dead.

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