Helicopter starting height

[Captain_Colossus]

it seems currently there is no way that a helicopter can begin a scenario already parked on the ground- they always start in the air as if on a cushion holding them up. in other words, create a helicopter in the editor, set flight height

at ground level, they begin the scenario several meters above ground and attempt to land as the scenario begins (and if there are sleight irregularities in the terrain, often there is a bouncing and spinning effect that can go on for several seconds with a chance

of collisions and damage while the helicopter is sorting out the best way to park)

[Gibsonm]

52 minutes ago, Captain_Colossus said:

it seems currently there is no way that a helicopter can begin a scenario already parked on the ground- they always start in the air as if on a cushion holding them up. in other words, create a helicopter in the editor, set flight height

at ground level, they begin the scenario several meters above ground and attempt to land as the scenario begins (and if there are sleight irregularities in the terrain, often there is a bouncing and spinning effect that can go on for several seconds with a chance

of collisions and damage while the helicopter is sorting out the best way to park)

 

Sorry had to rethink this.

 

I did a quick test (attached) and the helo lands within 15 sec of mission start.

 

I think in most situations that's not really going to impact game play? Especially if they are in a FARP or an an airfield some distance from any enemy unit.

 

The other option is to perhaps spawn them and then they land?

 

The crashing / repair option can be problematic (esp. if they had passengers).

 

 

Helo Landed test 4_023.sce

Edited November 25, 2018 by Gibsonm

[Captain_Colossus]

i've never seen what you describe work. i've tried for a long time- setting a starting damage to engine (or no fuel or no pilots) or whatever i can think to get to start on the ground never worked- in all cases it still starts in the air.

if you damage a component like the engine, it will still begin the mission in the air, but destroys itself attempting to land. while i appreciate the creative suggestion, i hope a relatively simple solution is that a helicopter starts

on the ground as specified at the outset. other vehicles don't necessarily behave that way, that is, they are placed at the outset where they should be unless there is an impassable object like building

Edited November 25, 2018 by Captain_Colossus

[Gibsonm]

I think its a constraint that helos were originally envisaged just "flying in" as required, not the whole pre-flight / landed security thing.

 

Unless you are actually defending say a FARP against a raid or similar then I've always been able to get away with them starting in flight and then landing (behind a ridge or at secure location) some distance from enemy eyes.

[Captain_Colossus]

i presume that that it was the case when they were designed in the context to steel beasts, it wasn't considered necessary at the time, but i hope it's on the 'bug' tracker. i see utility as a feature that they begin the a scenario on the ground under different circumstances of course

[Ssnake]

One (maybe not quite so) obvious problem is that at exactly Mission Start, the simulation "doesn't run" yet. If I understand the programmers right (and there's always the possibility that I don't) they need a few seconds to proper initialize everything. That's why you should park tanks right in front of emplacements rather than inside of them, so they realize that they are now in a privileged position; we need to bump vehicles out of buildings (if they were accidentally parked there), the suspension needs to be coiled (almost literally), etc.

I could imagine that it's a similar thing with the helicopters.

 

Do we have to address this?

Absolutely.

 

Do we have to address it right now?

That's where we may be in disagreement.

 

I'm repeating myself here, but the reality is that we could at any given point work on one of about 5,000 items on The List. By choosing one we're automatically rejecting 4,999 other items. Everybody has the few issues that are important to him. We need to identify the items that are of high enough importance to most, if not everybody. And helicopters that land a few seconds into the mission rather than starting right on the ground doesn't strike me as the kind of problem that would make the cut as "important to a large majority".

As soon as we have whittled down the list of super-high priority items ... and that's a dynamic list ... we will most certainly address "other issues". Typically in blocks like, "let's work on all the helicopter problems that have been reported", in which case this might get be addressed (if it's easily fixable; sadly, most issues turn out to be a bit more complicated).

[Captain_Colossus]

i don't point this out with any expectations of a timeframe or anything. however, i wasn't aware if anyone at esim or any of the playtesters were aware of this issue- which it looks like at least some weren't. so, my intent was to get it noted if not already, and if and when it gets fixed as a result is of course entirely on your schedule

[Ssnake]

And those are the best reasons to report your observations, indeed. We certainly want to know. It's just that often a report is combined with the implicit expectation that it will also be fixed as soon as possible. All I'm saying is, that may not always be a realistic hope.

[ChrisWerb]

The only problem I have with helicopters (and it's by far the No. 1 bug I'd like to see fixed in the simulation) is the relative lethality or lack thereof of various automatic weapons and missiles when used against them due to the way damage is modelled. This can cause significantly unrealistic outcomes. We already discussed this, and I fully accept that you will prioritise it according to perceived/stated customer need and other factors included in your business model.

[Ssnake]

Are you referring to inconsistent effects between different ammunition types, or the fact that since our damage model doesn't cover redundancies, the overall results incur too much randomness?

 

Both are problems. We're in the process of fixing the first - or at least to switch to a new approach in modelling that will allow us to address such inconsistencies better in the future. The latter is something that we haven't gotten around to work on, yet.

[Volcano]

If you want helicopters to start a scenario on the ground, then I have done this many times. I requires a bit o' fudging. I think it involved giving the helicopter a STAY tactic and 0% fuel, and so it runs out of fuel at mission start and lands violently (but safely) from minimum height.

 

If you want the helicopters to be anything but on-ground targets, then in the Mission Editor, park a fuel truck near them on STAY tactic (one fuel truck per two helicopters, parked in between) which will fuel them up after the mission begins, and when something happens in the mission you can have them lift off by embarking on a route of a certain condition.

 

In this way you can have helicopters start on an airfield and react to a threat, say, because an enemy force was spotted for so much time, for example.  Yes, there should be a better way to do this, but there is always more important things to do... 

[Ssnake]

At least there's a workaround.

[Captain_Colossus]

21 hours ago, Volcano said:

If you want helicopters to start a scenario on the ground, then I have done this many times. I requires a bit o' fudging. I think it involved giving the helicopter a STAY tactic and 0% fuel, and so it runs out of fuel at mission start and lands violently (but safely) from minimum height.

 

If you want the helicopters to be anything but on-ground targets, then in the Mission Editor, park a fuel truck near them on STAY tactic (one fuel truck per two helicopters, parked in between) which will fuel them up after the mission begins, and when something happens in the mission you can have them lift off by embarking on a route of a certain condition.

 

In this way you can have helicopters start on an airfield and react to a threat, say, because an enemy force was spotted for so much time, for example.  Yes, there should be a better way to do this, but there is always more important things to do... 

i have tried this for years, and the results do not always happen this way- for instance, if the purpose was to park them in landing zone from the outset, if the terrain is a little uneven, and/or there are structures or trees or anything like that relatively close by, helicopters with zero fuel can violently crash as they spin and juke in the air coming down to a hard landing (because it appears they are searching for some ideal place to land- with zero fuel, or an engine out or pilots removed, this can result in the unit being destroyed). this is why i post this here- because i've tried this many times, and i hope a permanent fix could be achieved, notwithstanding the replies why it may or may not happen already. i accept that it is what it is if it's never fixed, and if it is, that's cool too.

 

cheers-

[Ssnake]

I'd definitely like to see it fixed for good, eventually.

I also want us to work on a number of other things.

[Captain_Colossus]

i believe you- and it's not my number one request anyway, which is a tie between computers using mortars and taking away the computer tc's being instantly aware they are being fired on. as far as engineers go and you have pride for your product, those are good reasons to believe that your intentions are well meaning to fix all bugs if only that could be done. best-

 

 

[Volcano]

22 hours ago, Captain_Colossus said:

i have tried this for years, and the results do not always happen this way- for instance, if the purpose was to park them in landing zone from the outset, if the terrain is a little uneven, and/or there are structures or trees or anything like that relatively close by, helicopters with zero fuel can violently crash as they spin and juke in the air coming down to a hard landing (because it appears they are searching for some ideal place to land- with zero fuel, or an engine out or pilots removed, this can result in the unit being destroyed). this is why i post this here- because i've tried this many times, and i hope a permanent fix could be achieved, notwithstanding the replies why it may or may not happen already. i accept that it is what it is if it's never fixed, and if it is, that's cool too.

 

cheers-

OK, I guess I skimmed your first post too much. Yeah you sound like you have experimented with it  Obviously, a permanent fix would be better. Strange though, using the process I described It works for me every time in the scenarios I have it in, where there are supposed to be helicopters on an airfield.  You obviously don't want them at any height higher than Ground Level setting to do this though.

 

BTW, the helicopters are not spinning around looking for a place to land, they are spinning around in their "crash mode" similar to when they get shot down.  I had it figured out how far you had to turn the helicopter's starting facing to get it to be in the direction you want when it reaches the ground, but I forgot what it is now. 

 

[Gibsonm]

I think the key part is:

23 hours ago, Captain_Colossus said:

if the terrain is a little uneven, and/or there are structures or trees or anything like that relatively close by, ...

 

I think perhaps he isn't referring to an airfield / airport with lots of open space but say a "hastily prepared" LZ / FARP where there are trees or structures nearby and / or the ground isn't perfectly flat.

[Ssnake]

Is now Bug #6734.