Some artillery fire questions

[wildbillkelsoe]

So when a TRP is placed on map and targeted with say azimuth 1600, when it comes to correlate length and width of artillery fire, the length is also on azimuth 1600 or azimuth 0/3200? Also, how do you guys measure a bridge sighted azimuth, for say, a full length barrage? I dont see the in the map tools a compass to get this bridge azimuth. Do you do wonky maths? Isoceles triangles and shit?

 

I am also at loss when it comes to the term tubes. Is that the number of guns available or the number of artillery shells available per gun?

 

Lastly, when it comes to correcting fire, adjusting, is there a rule of thumb for different wind settings (I am not even sure how to acquire winds in planning phase, let alone if the winds are static, or dynamic).

 

 

[Ssnake]

You don't have to worry about the wind.

Even if you had the means to measure it (you don't), it would only tell you about the wind conditions at the observer's position, which is ideally never in the direct trajectory of the artillery shells). Rather, the fire direction center will receive the meteorological data nad pass them on to the firing batteries as correction factors. One possible solution is to fire a single "pilot round" and to track its trajectory with radar, then to derive the correction factors from it.

 

Tubes == guns, for all practical matters. Technically mortars aren't guns, and neither are multiple rocket launcher systems (howitzers however count as guns), so "tube" is the more generic term that includes everything that's capable of firing "effectors" into the target area.

[Breakthrough7]

@wildbillkelsoe The attitude of the target is the azimuth of the target's length dimension expressed from 0-3200.  It exists independently of the OT Direction [the azimuth from the Observer to the Target].  To illustrate:

[Gibsonm]

This may help:

 

 

Its also in the Bundle if you have downloaded that.

 

I know its not a full blown "how to call artillery like a FO / JFT / JTAC but it will put rounds on target.

 

[Grenny]

And maybe this one (written by a non gunner...but I hope still somewhat useful):

 

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=Artillery_Guide

[wildbillkelsoe]

Gibson, are you sure about the file you provided? the template drawing for 3200 azimuth seems to be 90° when it should in fact be 180°? Because 360° is 6400 mils?

[Gibsonm]

Yes.

 

Its pretty simple (i.e. you can do it yourself).

 

Create a mission, plot the fires, see how they land.

 

The 3200 and 0 are the same because its the same shape.

 

If you don't like it / don't want it - don't use it.

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by Gibsonm

[Rotareneg]

If you want to quickly see the effects of different artillery orientations set Realism in the options to medium, that will visualize artillery calls on the map.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Rotareneg

[wildbillkelsoe]

unfortunately I dont get it at all. I will lower realism setting per your recommendation Rotareneg. 

[Lt DeFault]

On 1/19/2019 at 4:21 AM, wildbillkelsoe said:

unfortunately I dont get it at all.

 

Look at the blue rectangle under "Attitude 0". Now, if you rotate that rectangle 90°, it would look like the rectangle under "Attitude 1600". If you rotated it another 90° (180° total), it would look like the rectangle under "Attitude 3200".

 

The longer axes of the rectangles in Mark's diagram (the "width" of the AOE) are not pointing to the mils orientation - the shorter axes are.

[wildbillkelsoe]

1 hour ago, Lt DeFault said:

 

Look at the blue rectangle under "Attitude 0". Now, if you rotate that rectangle 90°, it would look like the rectangle under "Attitude 1600". If you rotated it another 90° (180° total), it would look like the rectangle under "Attitude 3200".

 

The longer axes of the rectangles in Mark's diagram (the "width" of the AOE) are not pointing to the mils orientation - the shorter axes are.

 

well I would say this defies all known geometry I've studied in my life.. the width is the longer leg now? how is this even possible? 

[Gibsonm]

Like several people have suggested if you don't "get it" run a test scenario and plot different "attitudes" and come up with your own diagram.

 

All I can say is that almost 400 people have downloaded it and only one person doesn't seem to get it.

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Gibsonm

[Lt DeFault]

29 minutes ago, wildbillkelsoe said:

 

well I would say this defies all known geometry I've studied in my life.. the width is the longer leg now? how is this even possible? 

 

It's possible because the width and length are adjustable in scale but fixed in orientation to the attitude. SB is an armored combat sim, not a geometry textbook.

[wildbillkelsoe]

4 hours ago, Lt DeFault said:

 

It's possible because the width and length are adjustable in scale but fixed in orientation to the attitude. SB is an armored combat sim, not a geometry textbook.

 

And everybody who joins this boat is supposed to interpret, on their own, for the very first time, a drawing with very few words, alot of rectangles scattered in different azimuths as not being locked in perspective? 

 

Some text like "the rectangle is not locked in perspective, meaning that its dimensions can be shaped to length and width  to encompass the target formation relative to the map north, not Observer Target line that is obtainable by pressing K when unbuttoned and standing out the hatch". 

 

See this makes it much easier to anybody to interpret the shapes.. 

[Bond_Villian]

1 hour ago, wildbillkelsoe said:

And everybody who joins this boat is supposed to interpret, on their own, for the very first time, a drawing with very few words, alot of rectangles scattered in different azimuths as not being locked in perspective? 

 

Some text like "the rectangle is not locked in perspective, meaning that its dimensions can be shaped to length and width  to encompass the target formation relative to the map north, not Observer Target line that is obtainable by pressing K when unbuttoned and standing out the hatch". 

 

See this makes it much easier to anybody to interpret the shapes.. 

meh

[Gibsonm]

6 hours ago, wildbillkelsoe said:

 

And everybody who joins this boat is supposed to interpret, on their own, for the very first time, a drawing with very few words, alot of rectangles scattered in different azimuths as not being locked in perspective? 

 

Some text like "the rectangle is not locked in perspective, meaning that its dimensions can be shaped to length and width  to encompass the target formation relative to the map north, not Observer Target line that is obtainable by pressing K when unbuttoned and standing out the hatch". 

 

See this makes it much easier to anybody to interpret the shapes.. 

 

Or turn up to training sessions when offered and get walked through it.

 

"relative to the map north" It has an arrow and the words "Relative to North / Top of Map" written on it.

 

I'm not writing 50+ pages in my own time just for you because you are too lazy to spend 10mins in the Mission Editor testing it and working it out.

 

Its like your other request for me to move my VU's meeting night to suit one person - you.

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by Gibsonm

[Breakthrough7]

In my initial explanation I didn't acknowledge that in Steel Beasts the dimension inputs effectively function as (a) and (b) sides of a rectangle rather than conventional length (longer) and width (shorter) dimensions [as a result Steel Beasts offers the user two pathways for arriving at a desired target orientation and size];  That was on me, and I reckon that contributed to [or was the genesis of?] Wildbillkelsoe's confusion with Gibson's chart. 

Looks like you're tracking now though, so Mission Accomplished.

[Ssnake]

I'm not sure if "length" is the best term when it should read "depth". That alone might remove a lot of confusion.

 

Length (=depth) is the dimension in extension of the observer's line of sight to the target. Width is therefore perpendicular to it. It's probably also important to point out that targets with a lot of width and very little depth are what artillerists would call a linear target - something that is rather rarely used in real life, I've been told.

[Breakthrough7]

Some pages from the 3-09.30 and the older but superior 6-30 for additional reference;

 

[Gibsonm]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

It's probably also important to point out that targets with a lot of width and very little depth are what artillerists would call a linear target - something that is rather rarely used in real life, I've been told.

 

For HE perhaps, but we still tend to use Linear a fair bit for smoke missions as the same sized fire unit (and number of rounds) can obscure a larger gap  / arc.

[Major duck]

4 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

 

For HE perhaps, but we still tend to use Linear a fair bit for smoke missions as the same sized fire unit (and number of rounds) can obscure a larger gap  / arc.

Its used mostly for HC shells(Hexit or slow smoke takes about a min before its effective when it lands on the ground but burns longer and makes more smoke) irl but those aren't implemented in SB whereas irl NATO normal use in cold war is a rectangular target area of 250m x 250m, the only examples of Linear fire i can remember with HE was against landings on beaches and fast moving columns but the last was more or less considered waste of ammo, WP(White phosphorus, was quick smoke or burn)was almost instantaneous smoke) was always used in 250mx250m if BTN/BDE fire or 300m x 300m in div/Corps but as someone said its not an arty sim.

The 250 x 250 is because its mostly the smallest area that can be effectively hit with arty from a distance unless you use guided ammo and arty is an area weapon where you never fire with less than a Battery (6-8 guns) and normally its with a whole BTN aka 18-24 tubes/Guns the BDE fire direction center would normally not approved fires unless its for a whole BTN because less is ineffective aka to few rounds hitting inside the 250m x 250m today because of 1 gun can make multiple hit at the same time with different charges and elevations 3 or fewer tubes is used and the box has been narrowed but arty is still an area weapon unless you use guided shells
The guns are actually so that the 250 by 250 comes by with how the guns are setup aka in a box that are 250m wide and 125m deep the rest is just the ballistic inaccuracy from (diff in shell weight, Temp, wear and tear of the tube, recoil, weather diff in the weather at different attitudes , air pressure, shell velocity, charge temp , wind etc....)
So what gibson said is our use of smoke shells which does not work exactly like WP or HC but like a mix without the burn effect and to improve its arc so it works more like a HC shell linear fire but he is right on the attitude system in SB (The smoke is also instant which HC issent you would also normally not deploy it according to the target placement but so that the wind would keep it covered in the long burning smoke canisters)

i hope i have made my contribution to the confusion 

MD

Edited January 23, 2019 by Major duck

[wildbillkelsoe]

11 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

 

Or turn up to training sessions when offered and get walked through it.

 

"relative to the map north" It has an arrow and the words "Relative to North / Top of Map" written on it.

 

I'm not writing 50+ pages in my own time just for you because you are too lazy to spend 10mins in the Mission Editor testing it and working it out.

 

Its like your other request for me to move my VU's meeting night to suit one person - you.

 

well I am so sorry for trying to "ask" you for real life reasons to organise a friday meeting I thought you wanted to build momentum from the mail. anyways you dont have to write anything on your image just copy and paste my exact words, you have my permission.

 

thanks Breakthrough for the illustrations. men 👌🏻

 

 

[Breakthrough7]

On the application and effect of Cold War era massed fires in support of Offensive operations during Desert Storm [From US Army Historian Dr. Boyd Dastrup's Artillery Strong Modernizing the Field Artillery for the 21st Century];

[ChrisWerb]

Gibson's artillery template is the 2nd most useful thing I have printed off from the SB Pro PE package, after the keyboard template. 

[wildbillkelsoe]

So instead of opening up a new artillery related question, sometimes when I order 1 as number of tubes, no of rounds per tube 1, no of rounds per minute 1, duration of 1 minute I get about three artillery hits (even though I ordered one gun (= tube) to fire supposedly one round for an entire ordered duration of 1 minute, and that is for any purpose other than adjusting fires. Why does more than one round hit simultaneously where I aim? Round type is HE.