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T. Frankowski

Using Steel Beasts with Vorpx (VR)

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I know there's a lot of VR threads out there, but I haven't seen one mentioning if SB is incompatible with Vorpx software, it's been used to run many AAA games without the game natively supporting VR, so has anyone tried it with Vorpx? What was the outcome? Thanks.

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1 hour ago, Gibsonm said:

Sorry, no idea.

 

You could of course try it yourself?

Thanks for the reply, I hope other people have, because that would let me know if I should spend the $40.00 or not.

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There's also the $9.50 option for a single month.

 

Even if it technically worked however, I don't think that it would be a good experience.

  • no steady frame rate (and not even close to 90Hz)
  • no six degrees of freedom to move your head inside a vehicle
  • VR headset resolution may be too low for long range gunnery engagements, or proper target identification
  • Too many hotkeys to work with (you can't limit yourself to a game controller, even if it has a lot of buttons; the keyboard has more, and we're well past the 102 key binds)

Steel Beasts simply wasn't made for VR.

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10 hours ago, Ssnake said:

There's also the $9.50 option for a single month.

 

Even if it technically worked however, I don't think that it would be a good experience.

  • no steady frame rate (and not even close to 90Hz)
  • no six degrees of freedom to move your head inside a vehicle
  • VR headset resolution may be too low for long range gunnery engagements, or proper target identification
  • Too many hotkeys to work with (you can't limit yourself to a game controller, even if it has a lot of buttons; the keyboard has more, and we're well past the 102 key binds)

Steel Beasts simply wasn't made for VR.

I didn't mean paying the $40.00 for SB, I already have the lifetime license ($125). I was referring to buying Vorpx for SB, if I knew it worked it would relieve some tension buying it. Also, I have Voice Attack which is a great voice recognition software designed to push keys on command with my voice, so that's not an issue there, plus I have the CH Fighterstick, Pro Throttle. Which all together has.. 39 buttons, so that combined with Voice Attack should be good enough for anyone. When it comes down to target ID, I mean, I've been using the Rift for a long time, and I see no issues with IDing my targets, especially in the M1A2 since that has a massive zoom function, if I need to scan at a distance I'll simply zoom in. I understand eSim did not make this simulator for VR and even if they wanted to add VR there's too much in the way (finances, etc) but since I have DCS World for VR, I really would like a tank simulator in VR as well, that would give me tank warfare and aircraft warfare in a 3D realistic surrounding. Of course Arma 3 would never go VR so the infantry simulation will always be stuck on a monitor.. But that's just my wish for SB..

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Okay, this addresses a number of issues (congratulations). Still, from what I understand, VR games are struggling with two challenges,

  • maintain a steady frame rate of 90 fps or higher, or people will suffer from headaches
  • don't move around like you do in first person shooters, or people will suffer from motion sickness

While the second point may not be so bad, movement is relatively ghentle in SB Pro, the first one is something that we simply cannot deliver. So even if Vorpx can technically fulfill its promise to turn any game into a VR title, I still remain skeptical as far as the actual viability is concerned. This is the limit of my qualification to comment.

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20 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Okay, this addresses a number of issues (congratulations). Still, from what I understand, VR games are struggling with two challenges,

  • maintain a steady frame rate of 90 fps or higher, or people will suffer from headaches
  • don't move around like you do in first person shooters, or people will suffer from motion sickness

While the second point may not be so bad, movement is relatively ghentle in SB Pro, the first one is something that we simply cannot deliver. So even if Vorpx can technically fulfill its promise to turn any game into a VR title, I still remain skeptical as far as the actual viability is concerned. This is the limit of my qualification to comment.

I understand, well I'll hopefully be getting a RTX 2080 and a i9 9900k soon, so that could help with frames.. I'll still be getting Vorpx, if SB is not compatible then so be it. I'll be able to use it for other things regardless, but if it does work however I will let you and the SB community know in case some VR fans want to jump onboard with it. Thank you for your insight on the subject nonetheless.

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1 hour ago, Rotareneg said:

SB has a FPS cap of 62.5 FPS

I mean tbh I've played DCS World in VR while it stutters insanely with no mental issues whatsoever, it's very hard for me to get sick in VR as I've done almost everything in it without a problem, so as long as vorpx runs it, I'll be okay.

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8 hours ago, T. Frankowski said:

I understand, well I'll hopefully be getting a RTX 2080 and a i9 9900k soon, so that could help with frames.

Only marginally so. The benchmark results we're getting back from the beta testers show that, on the one hand, frame rates are universally better in 4.1 than they currently are in 4.0, which is good. At the same time there are clearly CPU limited scenes where all the GPU power in the world won't help you. Where you aren't CPU limited even a GTX 980 or 1070 delivers adequate (if capped) performance.

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Okay so I have good news about Vorpx, it DOES run Steel Beasts and it runs it as well as the monitor, it's basically mirroring it to the headset, as of now I don't know how to make it 3D which is what I want the most, but it puts you in a theater mode so to speak so you're playing on a huge screen. What's really amazing is I can use my head and move the primary sight around, this makes tracking a moving target extremely easy.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Only marginally so. The benchmark results we're getting back from the beta testers show that, on the one hand, frame rates are universally better in 4.1 than they currently are in 4.0, which is good. At the same time there are clearly CPU limited scenes where all the GPU power in the world won't help you. Where you aren't CPU limited even a GTX 980 or 1070 delivers adequate (if capped) performance.

I see.. well read what I just wrote up below your post, only downside like I said is no stereoscopic 3D, however you get a huge screen so it "almost" feels like you're there, just not as much with the 3D effect, and since this is just mirroring what your monitor sees, there's literally no drop in performance, I started up a very populated operation from last Sunday, and there's no difference at all. I'm still trying to figure out how to make it 3D but I know 3D will decrease performance. EDIT: Just found in the settings of Vorpx, there is a way to make it 3D however it's not the same 3D that DCS uses for example it's not stereoscopic but it is better than the flat screen, however even the flat screen is good considering it's like being in a movie theater so the immersion still exists.

Edited by T. Frankowski

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, T. Frankowski said:

What's really amazing is I can use my head and move the primary sight around, this makes tracking a moving target extremely easy.

 

Which is one reason at least why we aren't too interested in it, from a simulation point of view.

 

There is no point moving the sight with your head if in real life you need to use palm switches, gunner control handles, etc.

 

But if it helps you from an entertainment POV that's great.

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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8 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

 

 

There is no point moving the sight with your head if in real life you need to use palm switches, gunner control handles, etc.

 

 

 

Which begs the question, at what point in military tech do control handles become auxiliary?

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I don't see that happening anytime soon. It's not just about target tracking, it's also about all the other minor details such as actually shooting, firing the laser range finder, switching sensors, field of view, selecting ammo. On the day that one can do that reliably without touching buttons (e.g. mind-reading interface) it might happen, until we then discover issues with impulse control...

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Okay, this addresses a number of issues (congratulations). Still, from what I understand, VR games are struggling with two challenges,

  • maintain a steady frame rate of 90 fps or higher, or people will suffer from headaches
  • don't move around like you do in first person shooters, or people will suffer from motion sickness

While the second point may not be so bad, movement is relatively ghentle in SB Pro, the first one is something that we simply cannot deliver. So even if Vorpx can technically fulfill its promise to turn any game into a VR title, I still remain skeptical as far as the actual viability is concerned. This is the limit of my qualification to comment.

90fps is optimal. But anything above 60 is already ok. I have an Oculus and I can tell that #2 really varies from game to game.

Edited by stormrider_sp

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, T. Frankowski said:

I mean tbh I've played DCS World in VR while it stutters insanely with no mental issues whatsoever, it's very hard for me to get sick in VR as I've done almost everything in it without a problem, so as long as vorpx runs it, I'll be okay.

The only time I had to take my OR off because it was hitting my stomach was right after I got it when I tried one of those roller coasters. Sometimes I feel something while playing Assetto Corsa, regardless of the fps, but not enough to make me stop.

Edited by stormrider_sp

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47 minutes ago, stormrider_sp said:

The only time I had to take my OR off because it was hitting my stomach was right after I got it when I tried one of those roller coasters. Sometimes I feel something while playing Assetto Corsa, regardless of the fps, but not enough to make me stop.

Yeah the roller coasters are pretty extreme, I have Assetto Corsa as well but never felt anything from it.

2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I don't see that happening anytime soon. It's not just about target tracking, it's also about all the other minor details such as actually shooting, firing the laser range finder, switching sensors, field of view, selecting ammo. On the day that one can do that reliably without touching buttons (e.g. mind-reading interface) it might happen, until we then discover issues with impulse control...

In all fairness, you're able to use the joystick while using your head in VorpX, actually you don't have to use your head to aim at all, that's just an added feature because of the head tracking VorpX offers, I mean I'll be honest, I think VR could help out soldiers get better acquainted with the inside of the tank. Actually feeling like your there instead of looking at it on a monitor changes brain chemistry, at the same time I know this sim is made more for procedure rather than feeling real but that's just my thoughts on it, either way I enjoy it and that's what counts.

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2 hours ago, CalAB said:

Which begs the question, at what point in military tech do control handles become auxiliary?

Apache gunners have it haha!

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1 hour ago, stormrider_sp said:

90fps is optimal. But anything above 60 is already ok.

Yeah, but a realistic expectation for a full-sized battle is closer to 30 than to 60 fps.

I really don't understand why my warnings about this are seen as a mere opinion that can be safely ignored. I understand that you wish that VR would work well with Steel Beasts. I wish I had a secret supervillain base on the backside of the moon, and the means for a daily commute. But we all know it's not going to happen, no matter how strong my desire for it is. Sheer will does not bend reality, no matter what certain "motivational gurus" say.

I'm not an ignorant fool as far as VR is concerned. I have an Oculus. I'm not using it much, but we experimented with it. And I can read the specs, and I know what our engine and artwork can deliver. Anyone here with Steel Beasts on his computer can activate the frame counter and read the numbers. Why you keep fantasizing about frame rates above 60 is beyond me.

 

It's not that I don't want VR to work with Steel Beasts. I'm not against VR, in principle. I just won't recommend it, and there is nothing that you can write that would make me change my professional assessment.

 

If Vorpx works for some of you and you like it - great! Power to you, congratulations! But there's other people around who may be more sensitive to motion sickness if the framerates are below 90 fps, who will suffer from it if there's no true 6DOF implemented, and others will expect true stereoscopic rendering and a user interface designed for some game controller/HOTAS setup. Steel Beasts doesn't offer any of this with version 4.0, or 4.1, and is unlikely to offer it even in the medium future for reasons that I outlined here.

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4 minutes ago, T. Frankowski said:

Apache gunners have it haha!

General direction, yes, gun laying is still done via a control handle /thumb switch

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1 hour ago, T. Frankowski said:

Apache gunners have it haha!

There is a world of difference between those environments.

 

The Sim is required to emulate (or dare I say simulate) reality.

 

Your $40 simulation package is not going to drive $XX million AFV development programmes.

 

Like I said happy that it works for your entertainment (until of course people in say TGIF complain about your rapidly reduced target acquisition times compared to theirs) but as it doesn't simulate what is on a real vehicle we aren't interested.

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On 4/30/2019 at 2:45 PM, Ssnake said:

Okay, this addresses a number of issues (congratulations). Still, from what I understand, VR games are struggling with two challenges,

  • maintain a steady frame rate of 90 fps or higher, or people will suffer from headaches
  • don't move around like you do in first person shooters, or people will suffer from motion sickness

While the second point may not be so bad, movement is relatively ghentle in SB Pro, the first one is something that we simply cannot deliver. So even if Vorpx can technically fulfill its promise to turn any game into a VR title, I still remain skeptical as far as the actual viability is concerned. This is the limit of my qualification to comment.

  • maintain a steady frame rate of 90 fps or higher, or people will suffer from headaches. Not True, I get solid 90fps from my rig on a lot of games, and with ASW off , it doesn't hender my FPS at all; it may slow to 31 fps which still chugs along without any issues. the new Valve Index also supports 144hrz, which alot of people get motion sickness from.,
  • don't move around like you do in first person shooters, or people will suffer from motion sickness. and not true; causes those people with sensitive inner ear problems. 90% of users don't suffer any of these. The new Valve Index plays up to 144hrz.

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That you have no problem with lower frame rates doesn't mean that eSim Games could declare Steel Beasts "VR ready". You're free to ignore my advice, even when you explicitly asked for it. I would however appreciate if you would make it clear that it is your opinion that the official specs given out by Oculus can be safely ignored, and that other people might come to different conclusions, even if you happen to disagree with them.

 

Officially, Steel Beasts Pro is not suited for VR headsets, and won't be for the foreseeable future.

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Posted (edited)

Okay, anyone who wants to play steel beasts in their VR headset, buy VorpX, it's $40 and it will let you enjoy being in a tank in the virtual world without having to look at a monitor, the 3D is not like lets say DCS World but it is enough to become immersed in it. Some people don't understand that when you're overwhelmed by something all around you that it changes your brain chemicals and lets you process things in a new light, that's fine by me, but VorpX turns your dreams into reality even though it might not be stereoscopic, it sure is right in front of you. Look, I said it once and I'll say it again. I know SB will never move to VR because of the price of hardware and of course the simulation only stops at the screen, mainly because it's all about functionality and not immersion, that's fine by me and since I have my little taste of VR that's all I needed. If anyone want's to experience SB in a HMD, you can get VorpX and I guarantee you it works as of right now, even though it's not as stereoscopic as DCS World for example, it still cuts the cake.

Edited by T. Frankowski

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