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Lumituisku

Question about Leopard 2A5s, Emergency and Manual modes

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So few question about Emergency and Manual mode on Leopard 2a5 -  What is the difference? tutorials say that when primary electrical drive is lost one cannot steer lase or shoot the gun,  in emergency mode, yet in tutorials I have been able to do all that while having 

 

Stabilization XX

turret drive XX

Stabilization 50s  (for less than minute)

 

As reported damage listed with red on top right  

 

I don't quite understand that.

 

I get that when using Emergency and manual modes gun doesn't rotate during loading. And so gunner is better able to use GAS

 

I understand that on manual mode turret moves slower because backup power is used...  but same seems to happen on emergency mode as well, turret just turns slower is turret drive is damaged and everything works as before.

 

I see no other difference. Nor I cannot seem to find any benefit from manual mode in 2A5s?  (2A4 is different story though, on that manual mode seems to be necessity to use hand cranks)

 

So...  Is it that. In emergency mode tank doesn't have stabilization, and it is what AI sometimes turns on when going trough forest.

 

And Manual mode is...    well actually -  when would one use manual mode on leopard 2A5s? 

Edited by Lumituisku

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a. There's always the possibility that you may have discovered a bug

b. The stabilization loss is the kind of damage which I'd love to see refined, but because of far-reaching implications we've always delayed working on that

c. Turret drive should definitely prevent all movement. If that's not the case, it's a bug.

d. I don't think that the laser would be affected. If the tutorial says that, the tutorial is wrong. Maybe it's a misunderstanding.

e. Shooting the gun is possible, you just shouldn't do it in stabilized mode after a stabilization loss because there's no guarantee of the primary sight still being in alignment with the gun, and the sztabilization system might not be able to detect the loss of coincidence and therefore not block the trigger when it actually should be.

f. In Emergency mode the movement should be just as fast as in stabilized mode. If it isn't that's a bug.

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I just tested on newly created mission, that if you get Turret drive damage  all you have to do is to switch to emergency mode, and you're able to turn the turret.  It just turns very slowly.  So, according to you 

4 hours ago, Ssnake said:

c. Turret drive should definitely prevent all movement. If that's not the case, it's a bug.

 

During testing I had to switch back to emergency mode after applying turret drive damage because

AI Gunner, if he is alive, automatically turns manual mode on if there is Turret drive damage.

 

---

 

As for

4 hours ago, Ssnake said:

f. In Emergency mode the movement should be just as fast as in stabilized mode. If it isn't that's a bug.

In emergency mode speed is normal if you do not have Turret Drive damage, If you have then movement speed is same as on Manual mode.  

 

----

 

I will take time to check all Leopard 2A5 related tutorials next, to see and to quote here what tutorials say about Manual mode, at least one tutorial has it as I previously quoted, I just don't remember switch one. 

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Okay, sounds as if the tutorial is wrong stating that you can't use the laser (which tutorial is it, exactly?), and that there's a bug WRT still being able to move the turret after Turret Drive dramage occurs. Please bump this thread if there is no reply from eSim staff with a bug number for you by May 20th.

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I found this exact same quoted piece of text from all leopard tutorials. 1A5, 2A4, 2A5, 2E, Strv.

"In this tutorial, your tank will have a damaged primary electrical drive (which also disables stabilization). You'll notice that you won't be able to steer, lase or shoot the gun in NORMAL or EMERGENCY mode. Practice aiming and shooting the targets in MANUAL mode, using the GAS."

 

I found also this piece of text from tutorials of all leopards (including 2A5, 2E and Strv)

"In Steel Beasts, only the arrow keys move the gun in MANUAL mode. Pressing of the arrow key is like using the alternate control stick in the real tank."

However as I just tested currently arrow keys do not make turret to move on Leopard 2A5 versions only mouse / joystick input moves turret. And if turret drive is damaged it just happens very slowly with mouse or joystick  

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Here is small video I just took to show how 2A5 currently behaves on Emergency and Manual modes, regarding moving turret, Lazing and thermal. Oh as note also shooting was possible normally.

 

 

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Ok, all this turns in to  entries  #7278, #7279 and #7280 and will be investigated. :)

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Further question - This time, about Leo 2A4 emergency mode.    Is it supposed to work just as in normal mode but without stabilization?

 

Or   Is is supposed to be  reacting only to "extreme" mouse and joystick input on 2A4?  like, moving a mouse along of slow to normal movement speed range doesn't make sight move at all...  it only seems to move at fast speed range.   Pretty much just like on Warrior IFV when using mouse for power traverse.

 

I tested Leo 1A5 and 2A5s and on those Emergency mode works just as on normal, there just isn't stabilization.  So 2A4 seems oddball of all Leos in this matter. 

 

Though...  there seems to be that when on emergency mode in  2A4 gunner can use hand cranks.  So maybe...  hydraulics are supposed to be used to turn turret on desired direction and then used hand cranks for more precise aiming? 

Then again, same is case on leo 1A5  but on that gunner has precise control of hydraulics unlike in 2A4 where only extreme input makes turret and gun to move. 

 

 So i think that something is  a miss here

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15 minutes ago, Lumituisku said:

Further question - This time, about Leo 2A4 emergency mode.    Is it supposed to work just as in normal mode but without stabilization?

No.

Quote

Or   Is is supposed to be  reacting only to "extreme" mouse and joystick input on 2A4?  like, moving a mouse along of slow to normal movement speed range doesn't make sight move at all...  it only seems to move at fast speed range.   Pretty much just like on Warrior IFV when using mouse for power traverse.

Yes, this is intentional.

In the Leopard 2A4, in emergency mode the control handle directly operates the hydraulic valves to make the turret turn, or the gun to change elevation. This requires considerable force, and then you aren't very good at fine control. We decided to simulate that with a joystick/mouse response curve that has a very large dead zone and then starts with a relatively high movement rate.

Quote

I tested Leo 1A5 and 2A5s and on those Emergency mode works just as on normal, there just isn't stabilization.  So 2A4 seems oddball of all Leos in this matter. 

Electric turret drive in the 2A5. It's just a different joystick, and a different electricity circuit at work, making it a lot more convenient to operate. It's also much more silent as you have no hydraulic pump running with its characteristic whine.

Quote

Though...  there seems to be that when on emergency mode in  2A4 gunner can use hand cranks.  So maybe...  hydraulics are supposed to be used to turn turret on desired direction and then used hand cranks for more precise aiming?

Precisely!

Quote

Then again, same is case on leo 1A5  but on that gunner has precise control of hydraulics unlike in 2A4 where only extreme input makes turret and gun to move.

I have no first hand experience with the Leopard 1. I suspect that it is similar in its characteristics, but so far nobody confirmed it, therefore we haven't applied the same characteristics. Would be interested to know if the M1A1 also shows a similar behavior.

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Thank you Ssnake for your reply!  And Assasin for your link, that would have been tough to find for me as its so old. 

 

3 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

I have no first hand experience with the Leopard 1. I suspect that it is similar in its characteristics, but so far nobody confirmed it, therefore we haven't applied the same characteristics. Would be interested to know if the M1A1 also shows a similar behavior.

 Just what I was thinking!     I am also wondering if this is true on other vehicles...  like  T-72

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M1A1 doesn’t have the same behavior. You would still have all the same functionality in the Hydraulic System.  Reason is the LVDT’s in the handles and LVDT’s in the Elevation/Traversing Mechanisms still continue to communicate through the FCS. The 3rd stage valves still providing the back pressure corrections and releasing the extra pressure back through the servos while monitored by the Delta P while using the release valves. Of course these signals are provided by Control Handles, the Mirror movements and the Gun positing as the Mirrors are now following the Gun which your Gyros inputs are turned off and the Emergency mode FCS symptoms are active such as no lead and Ballistic Solutions. 

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Also forgot to mention when you switch to emergency mode your FCS depends on the GTD system first instead of the LOS Systems and Stabilization system (would be disabled) even though it is still monitored. Also all FCS inhibits are bypassed. 

Edited by Assassin 7

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1 hour ago, Lumituisku said:

I am also wondering if this is true on other vehicles...  like  T-72

This not applies   to T-72,  since  its  stabilizers(2E28 or 2E42) are providing smooth  change of tracking rate in AZ plane from lowest to highest disregarding of the mode of operation,  albeit   lowest tracking rate in semiauto is marginally higher than in  auto mode- "no higher than 0.3 degrees per second"  vs "no higher than 0.07 degrees per second" in case of 2E28.

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On 5/6/2019 at 1:42 AM, Ssnake said:

a. There's always the possibility that you may have discovered a bug

b. The stabilization loss is the kind of damage which I'd love to see refined, but because of far-reaching implications we've always delayed working on that

c. Turret drive should definitely prevent all movement. If that's not the case, it's a bug.

d. I don't think that the laser would be affected. If the tutorial says that, the tutorial is wrong. Maybe it's a misunderstanding.

e. Shooting the gun is possible, you just shouldn't do it in stabilized mode after a stabilization loss because there's no guarantee of the primary sight still being in alignment with the gun, and the sztabilization system might not be able to detect the loss of coincidence and therefore not block the trigger when it actually should be.

f. In Emergency mode the movement should be just as fast as in stabilized mode. If it isn't that's a bug.

So...  ->  c. Turret drive should definitely prevent all movement. If that's not the case, it's a bug.    

 

1  -  As in now on current version 4.167.  Leopard 2A5s and never, when those get Turret drive damage, player is no longer able to turn turret.  However same applies to moving gun up and down.  I wonder, if "All movement"  means that it includes gun as well?   Perhaps because major eletric damage / malfunction?

 

2 - Also with turret drive damage there is now repeating 1 minute stabilization damage as added bonus.   

 

3 - And reason why I got to investigate and bump this topic again is that despide turret drive damage, and players inability to move turret or gun...   AI can still do both, although extremely slowly (Note AI has to be prompted to move turret) and I have not found way how I as player could do either.

 

 

 

4 - Aaaaand I just discovered that if leopard 2A4  get's turret drive damage.  You cannot use hand cranks on emergency mode.  And I don't really understand that because normally on emergency mode when i have stabilization damage, i can use hand cranks.  Sooo...  there seems to be conflict there or maybe it is feature I am not avare of.

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In the 2A4, if you have hydraulic power damage you MUST switch to manual mode to hope to still be able to move the turret as the main hydraulic reservoir is likely to be depleted by the automatic hydraulic pump which switches on whenever it senses a drop in pressure (so it'll pump more and more oil into the leakage until it's all gone).

In a similar way, the Leopard 2A5 has replaced the hydraulic system with an electric drive, so if the primary electric power (E-WNA) is damaged only by switching to manual mode would you get access to the emergency electric power source to move the turret slowly.

 

Turret drive damage should prevent all turret rotation in both tanks, as it's meant to represent the turret drive gearbox. Our programmers may have simplified the model in Steel Beasts to also prevent gun movement even though, technically, the gun tube is elevated and depressed by different equipment (but hey, we're not trying to model every minute detail in either tank).

 

If computer crews can move the turret even when turret drive damage is active, that'd be a bug. Please confirm that this is what you saw.

 

If you have hydraulic or electric power loss, and you switch to manual mode (not "emergency" mode!) and you still can't use the hand cranks (arrow keys) in the Leopard 2A4, or the joystick/mouse in slow movement (Leopard 2A5), then that'd be a bug. If you can't move it in Emergency mode, that's a feature.

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Turret damage appears to disable turret rotation completely (gun elevation still works.)

 

Turret drive damage disabled normal traverse in 2A4 and M1A2, requiring hand cranks. In 2A5, the AI can still traverse, but player cannot.

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7 hours ago, Ssnake said:

In the 2A4, if you have hydraulic power damage you MUST switch to manual mode to hope to still be able to move the turret as the main hydraulic reservoir is likely to be depleted by the automatic hydraulic pump which switches on whenever it senses a drop in pressure (so it'll pump more and more oil into the leakage until it's all gone).

In a similar way, the Leopard 2A5 has replaced the hydraulic system with an electric drive, so if the primary electric power (E-WNA) is damaged only by switching to manual mode would you get access to the emergency electric power source to move the turret slowly.

 

Turret drive damage should prevent all turret rotation in both tanks, as it's meant to represent the turret drive gearbox. Our programmers may have simplified the model in Steel Beasts to also prevent gun movement even though, technically, the gun tube is elevated and depressed by different equipment (but hey, we're not trying to model every minute detail in either tank).

 

If computer crews can move the turret even when turret drive damage is active, that'd be a bug. Please confirm that this is what you saw.

 

If you have hydraulic or electric power loss, and you switch to manual mode (not "emergency" mode!) and you still can't use the hand cranks (arrow keys) in the Leopard 2A4, or the joystick/mouse in slow movement (Leopard 2A5), then that'd be a bug. If you can't move it in Emergency mode, that's a feature.

-

 

Ooookay, things just got weird.  I suppose there has been changes in damage modeling and classification of what means what. Because I cannot find things you mention from damage list in mission editor?  (As side note, list seems almost same on all vehicles. Whether there is hydraulically powered turret or electrically.  There seem to be small items like "search light, automatic fire and laser warning receiver added to list.. but this seems basic list on most vehicles.)

 

1937240195_Leodamage.thumb.jpg.90d7adc77299e315b35c8eff436bb87c.jpg

 

Could it be that at some point there has been made simplification that "Turret drive"  means..   hydraulics or eletric prover?   and Turret = turret jammed and turret motor or gears broken?   Because I cannot find  Hydraulic power or Electric power from list... or anything that I could easily identify as such.

 

As far as I can tell... on all vehicles that I have played... exept Leopards with eletrics motors, turret drive damage =  Hand cranking (arrow keyes) on either Emergency or manual mode.   

 

Soo...  if that is so...   then it would mean that on leopards with electric, that have turret drive damage  should be able to move turret (and gun) slowly? 

Edited by Lumituisku

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Not every damage that may occur during a scenario can be set in the Mission Editor, and not every damage that can be set in the Mission Editor can occur "naturally".

 

But "turret drive" may indeed be a case where we named it "Hydraulics" in older versions of SB Pro and then had to rename it to account for electrically powered turrets.

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Sorry for any confusion in this thread, but...

 

"Turret drive" damage causes a loss of powered traverse, not loss of all turret movement.  With turret drive damage, you still should be able to traverse in manual mode. If that is not the case, then this is what would be a bug.

 

"Turret" damage is what should cause a vehicle to lose all traverse capability, both manual and powered. If that is not the case, then that would be a bug.

 

(Yes, likely confusion might be from the possibility that "Turret drive" could have been named "Hydraulics" long ago).

 

--------------------

edit:

 

To be clear there is a bug here with the Leo 2A5 (the user should be able to traverse manually like the AI can with Turret Drive damage). This is under investigation.

 

 

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...and yes, we'll try to make it consistent between human and AI crew.

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Trying to learn the Leopard 2A5 using the tutorials today, I also couldn't move the turret in manual mode using mouse or arrow keys in the manual fire tutorial. With an undamaged 2A5, I could move the sight in manual mode using the mouse.

Edited by Croaker

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