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Lumituisku

Arrow-keys related question.

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Posted (edited)

When using mouse to control turret or sights, pressing UP, LEFT or RIGHT arrow keys makes you lose mouse input.

 

 

Edited by Lumituisku

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To the extent that arrow keys represent hand cranks and the mouse control represents powered traverse control handles, this is intentional. Unless you're a horrible space mutant with four arms/tentacles/manipulator appendices you can operate only one at a time. So, "a feature" (if maybe a bit nerdy).

 

A second function (NumPad 4,8,6,2, which also register as arrow keys thanks to convoluted decisions by IBM and Microsoft in the mid 1980s) was intended as very quick checks to the left/right/front/rear when being unbuttoned; arguably there it would be justified to keep the mouse focus (but we don't; the decision could go either way).

 

  • Leopard 2A4, CRD Peri view: Yes, that is a bug, at least as far as the up and down arrows are concerned. These would represent buttons on the handle, and left/right should be ignored, so that's indeed a bug.
  • M1: Not a bug; there's two modes to control the heavy MG, powered traverse (simulated by mouse operation) which however only steers left/right, and arrow keys (=hand cranks) that can also control elevation; arguably it's inconsistent that the loss of focus happens on the up arrow, but not the down arrow. We'll discuss this internally and see which solution is most appropriate; los of focus for left/right arrow is intentional, see my first remarks
  • T-72 sounds wrong as well, but I have to check your video a few more times to understand what's going on there.

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Posted (edited)

Um, yes I can understand that.  However...    There are at-least two vehicles that this affects very badly. 

 

T-72s, on emergency mode  where it can power traverse turret (with mouse) and has to elevate or depress main gun.  Where elevating main gun with arrow keys makes you to lose mouse input. 

M1 abrams commanders 50 cal.  Commander can turn 50 cal with mouse input but has to elevate or depress it with arrow keys.  once again, up arrow key makes you lose mouse imput, making tracking target very difficult. 

Also on Leopard 2 - Commanders periscope using up arrow key makes you lose mouse input.  (inconvenient if you are tracking target) 

 

Oddly, this doesn't happen on t72 commanders antiaircraft machine gun.  Up arrow works perfectly there.   

Edited by Lumituisku

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14 minutes ago, Lumituisku said:

T-72s, on emergency mode  where it can power traverse turret (with mouse) and has to elevate or depress main gun.  Where elevating main gun with arrow keys makes you to lose mouse input. 

The deciding factor would be - something that I cannot answer right now - whether hand crank and powered traverse can be used simultaneously. It's quite possible that the powered traverse in the T-72 is only intended as a quick and coarse change of turret facing, and then you'd be supposed to use hand cranks only. The bug might be that the horizontal powered traverse can be operated in Steel Beasts with too much precision.

 

Quote

M1 abrams commanders 50 cal.  Commander can turn 50 cal with mouse input but has to elevate or depress it with arrow keys.  once again, up arrow key makes you lose mouse imput, making tracking target very difficult.

Yes, but that's intentional because M1 tankers told us that you can't do both at the same time.

 

Quote

Also on Leopard 2 - Commanders periscope using up arrow key makes you lose mouse input.  (inconvenient if you are tracking target) 

 

Oddly, this doesn't happen on t72 commanders antiaircraft machine gun.  Up arrow works perfectly there.   

a. I already wrote that this was a bug, I'm not disputing this.

b. This may be intentional if it's possible to use some form of powered traverse qhile simultaneously working a hand crank for elevation.

This very much depends on the ergonomics of the individual crew station.

 

Needless to say, it was easier to stay consistent with everything in the UI when we didn't have more than 120 different vehicles with individual crew positions.

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12 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

a. I already wrote that this was a bug, I'm not disputing this.

I am terribly sorry that I didn't notice your full reply and made you repeat yourself. I am sorry.  

 

Sometimes I forget that I am not a tanker myself, even when I very much would want to be one, one day.  There are things that only true professionals / equipment users know.   Old saying "pride comes before a fall"  Proves to be true once again.

 

from a game or simulation, it is very easy to assume things to be possible. Truth, is much more complicated.

 

25 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Needless to say, it was easier to stay consistent with everything in the UI when we didn't have more than 120 different vehicles with individual crew positions.

 

Yes, I can understand what you mean. And so many of those vehicles have fairly different systems as well, there are bound to be conflicts.  

 

Umm. 

 

Perhaps this topic should be about why down arrow doesn't have effect that up and side arrows do.  Though. Maybe retaining mix of some smoothness and clunky behavior on this simulation would be desirable. 

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No, you discovered inconsistencies, so it's not about just one thing and everything else is fine. Most of your observations are quite valid.

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When I was a gunner on M60A1s my first master gunner taught me to use the manual elevation handle  for fine final inputs and firing to correct my habbit of jerking the cadilac when firing.  It made me much more accurate.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, TSe419E said:

When I was a gunner on M60A1s my first master gunner taught me to use the manual elevation handle  for fine final inputs and firing to correct my habbit of jerking the cadilac when firing.  It made me much more accurate.

 

 

Assasin told me that it is in theory possible to use hand cranks same time with hydraulics (with danger of dislocating ones arm) - I believe that this what you just said, is reason why.  That gunner can rabidly switch between hydraulic and manual handles for final adjustment if necessary.  Perhaps more likely if there is some combat damage to tank -wonders.- 

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Posted (edited)

The M1A1 50 Cal copula can be traversed and elevated at the same time and can be used at anytime even during turret movement which you would not be able to hit nothing and would be traversing all over due to not having any stab at all. The reason is it has it own electrical drive system and manual system in azimuth. The elevation system is mechanically driven. The Elevation handle is locked in place and when you press up it releases the handle lock which then the TC rotates the handle left or right which can be difficult at time while moving the copula. Now for Gunnery use and faster engagement times the TC uses the Turret to help with azimuth and just uses the elevation to adjust range while engaging a target. It has always been standard practice to not use both at the same time. So during zeroing the TC will adjust his copula in Azimuth to be a lined with Turret direction.

 

As far as the Hydraulic systems on the Abrams. You can only use your manual elevation handle while having your palm switch pressed. There is part of the processing for bleeding the hydraulic system that you have to actively use both. The Azimuth Drive system is Mechanically driven which if the gunner grab the Azimuth Handle during a slew it would destroy the azimuth manual drive system and could hurt the gunner's arm. So you cannot used both with Azimuth. 

Edited by Assassin 7

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51 minutes ago, Lumituisku said:

Assasin told me that it is in theory possible to use hand cranks same time with hydraulics (with danger of dislocating ones arm) - I believe that this what you just said, is reason why.  That gunner can rabidly switch between hydraulic and manual handles for final adjustment if necessary.  Perhaps more likely if there is some combat damage to tank -wonders.- 

I don’t know about M1s but the M60A1s manual travrse was directly connected to the traversing gear box.  If the turret was moved with hydrolic power and the manual traversing handle was not in its detent the gunner would most likely have a broken jaw if he was looking through his primary sight as the handle would be spinng faster than he could move it.  The manual elevation handle was only connected to a pump that allowed the gun to move up and down.

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