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Posted (edited)

it is still linked to your bank account- where do you think the funds come from? in other words, if someone electronically intercepts or otherwise acquired your debit card number, pin and security code, they have direct access to the funds in your bank account, it is a direct debit. a credit card is different because it is not connected that way. you could have no funds in your bank, but still make purchases on credit, but at the cost of paying interest. a debit card means you can only pay with what is exactly in your bank account (or overdraw on your account either with penalties or the transaction is rejected altogether), regardless of,whether it has visa or MasterCard logo on it. a debit card behaves like a check, but the payment routes through a third party (visa, mc etc)

Edited by Captain_Colossus

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I don't think that debit cards are fundamentally less secure than credit cards; at least not in Germany. Most of the heuristics applied to preventing credit card fraud are also applied to debit cards, and in any case all transactions are SSL secured, making electronic intercepts of a purchase transaction in a web store way less likely than other forms of breaching cyber security (such as trojan horses, encryption/blackmail viruses, or classic hacking including techniques such as social engineering). That's not to say that there are no risks whatsoever with debit cards. But it's not as if credit card fraud was unheard of either, and yet people keep using them.

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you have either a fabrege egg or your groceries stored and secured at my house. even if both are secured the same, the financial risks are not if some goofy squirrel can get around my security- debit cards are linked to your bank funds, credit cards have nothing to do with that. I can theoretically never pay my credit card bill, with debit cards anyone who has access to them has access to your funds. so hacking one has more dire consequences than the other even if the security is similar. on the other hand in the US thieves may be,especially interested in one or the other, setting up debit card skimmers at point of sale terminals and atm machines. it does seem however the attitudes about credit cards are different in europe 

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If your worried about thieves accessing your bank account because of debit card usage, simply use a secondary bank account which contains a lesser amount that your main account; simple.

I support the use of credit cards and have no use for a debit card. I would however use PayPal, but that is very much a secondary concern for me.

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Posted (edited)

im not worried about it because i don't use my debit card for purchases, nor is it necessary to open a secondary account. simple.

 

if you did take that route of maintaining another account with less funds deposited in it, you should be aware that banks often make you maintain a minimum monthly balance or else if you go under that, fees start to apply. so in the us of a, that minimum amount might be $5000 with a $50 dollar penalty kicking in each month if you go one dollar under that- which is not a small sum for a lot of folks. i am not making this up, and i get the feeling there is some kind of peculiar reason anyone would dispute this- this is not controversial, in the usa, it really is considered riskier safer to use debit cards as payment, whereas credit cards unlike debit cards are insulated from your primary funds, so it is more likely that fraud activity is detected and payments stopped before more damage accumulates like they could on a checking account. of course we don't like the fact that we pay interest on credit cards, but that is mitigated if only we remember to pay as soon as the purchases post to our statements, and if we keep on top of each payment cycle and that won't be a problem. it's known in the industry that credit issuers actually hate responsible consumers like that, they are 'dead beats' because they make their money off of delinquent payments, not people who stay on the ball.

 

so in my case my credit limit got built up because of that practice, i use credit cards for any non cash purchase and pay them off quickly. there is a stigma to credit cards because it is assumed they encourage bad habits

and even addiction to spending, which is certainly true- in my case however i never use my credit card for funds i don't actually have, it's simply a way to effect non cash payments that i pay off, and i keep the interest payments down to a minimum as long as i remember to keep on top of it, notwithstanding if in someone else's particular case there is some kind of fee applied even if they don't use their credit card. that's not my situation, though.

Edited by Captain_Colossus

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I checked the offerings in Germany again, but I will stay in opinion where I am and will not get another credit card again. I just do not need one. And even prepaid cards cost you fees and money, and even "free" credit cards come with terms and minimum timetables that make them not free but surprisngly costly, in the end. I do not need them,  and so I will not pay any credit card company that in the end conducts a man-in-the-middle-attack on the transaction between me and a deal partner. I have also serious fiscal-political and economic arguments against plastic money in general, but that discussion about FIAT money and debt and inflation and all that stuff  belongs not to this board. It is a principle thing why I object to credit cards. They make an already bad, fraudulent counterfeit money system even worse and open the door for even greater abuse by banks and politics. Most people do not give these things a thought. There will come times when people deeply regret this.

 

I wish you all fun with 4.1 .

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What on earth do people want esim to provide? Their ecommerce service will work with credit and debit cards. This is a pretty standard practice. As paying by cash and bartering with bloody donkeys isnt an option what other system do you think there should be???

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34 minutes ago, Skybird03 said:

I wish you all fun with 4.1 .

 

Well at least two people now have offered you work arounds - but if you don't want to take advantage of them that's your call.

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I think we have now reached the stage where it's a matter of principle.

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I can fully understand Skybird03's conviction. I would also act like him, if I had not the option to use the credit card of my girlfriend.

 

Quote

What on earth do people want esim to provide? Their ecommerce service will work with credit and debit cards. This is a pretty standard practice. As paying by cash and bartering with bloody donkeys isnt an option what other system do you think there should be???

 

No, it's pretty standard that you can buy via PayPal. I never needed a credit card to buy any software or game since the last 10 years. So why getting one only for one simulation. The only other games (simulations) I knew since the last 10 years were P3D and Janes USAF MiniPro (a non free version of the SuperPro Mod) at GulfKnights website some years ago. And believe me, I own every single simulation which was built in the last 30 years, cause I'm collector of all kind of combat-, race-, driving-simulators. I have over 1000 of them, must really be one of the worlds largest PC-simulation collections.

 

Only ones still missing are P3D and MiniPro (the webpage closed some years ago), cause you needed a credit card to buy those. SB Pro PE is the only exception, cause there isn't any comparable detailed modern tank sim, even one that isn't more than 10 years old.

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6 minutes ago, Viper1970 said:

I can fully understand Skybird03's conviction. I would also act like him, if I had not the option to use the credit card of my girlfriend.

 

 

No, it's pretty standard that you can buy via PayPal. I never needed a credit card to buy any software or game since the last 10 years. So why getting one only for one simulation. The only other games (simulations) I knew since the last 10 years were P3D and Janes USAF MiniPro (a non free version of the SuperPro Mod) at GulfKnights website some years ago. And believe me, I own every single simulation which was built in the last 30 years, cause I'm collector of all kind of combat-, race-, driving-simulators. I have over 1000 of them, must really be one of the worlds largest PC-simulation collections.

 

Only ones still missing are P3D and MiniPro (the webpage closed some years ago), cause you needed a credit card to buy those. SB Pro PE is the only exception, cause there isn't any comparable detailed modern tank sim, even one that isn't more than 10 years old.

How do you put money into PayPal?

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Posted (edited)

IIRC, you can directly transfer from your bank to PayPal.

Edited by Rotareneg

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It isn't only a matter of how the money will be transfered, it is simple a matter of extra fees or just something I have to organize only to get just one simulation. I don't understand what the problem with PayPal is, cause every company works with them, but this is not my decision and I have to respect other peoples decisions. 

 

Same goes for the decision of Skybird03, so no need to proposition him.

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Fine. I just find it hard to believe you can not use your regular bank card to make a purchase. I can understand wanting the extra security offered by a CC. Or the personal convenience of using PayPal. But FFS we are talking about 40 euro payment to a reputable company for a unique product. If doing things a little differently than you are used to is too much then it's your loss no one else's. I doubt esim will miss your custom. At the end of the day they don't have to offer  SB as a commercial product and the amount of crap like this Ssnake has to put up with around the time of updates would test the patience of a saint. I would have given up long before now.

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5 minutes ago, hoggydog said:

Fine. I just find it hard to believe you can not use your regular bank card to make a purchase. I can understand wanting the extra security offered by a CC. Or the personal convenience of using PayPal. But FFS we are talking about 40 euro payment to a reputable company for a unique product. If doing things a little differently than you are used to is too much then it's your loss no one else's. I doubt esim will miss your custom. At the end of the day they don't have to offer  SB as a commercial product and the amount of crap like this Ssnake has to put up with around the time of updates would test the patience of a saint. I would have given up long before now.

Every customer is a win for esim, IMO you are sounding to dismissive.

 

Still, while every customer counts, Ssnake stated as to why he does not want the alternative payment methods.

At the end of the day, its his decision as an entrepreneur...

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1 minute ago, Grenny said:

Every customer is a win for esim, IMO you are sounding to dismissive.

 

Still, while every customer counts, Ssnake stated as to why he does not want the alternative payment methods.

At the end of the day, its his decision as an entrepreneur...


I agree with you. If he knew how exceptionally hard it is to get an international credit card, plus all the taxes and fees for international transactions and the conversion rate(at least, speaking for myself here), he wouldn't be so dismissive. 

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Just now, drcancerman said:

If he knew how exceptionally hard it is to get an international credit card, ....

 

????

 

I get letters from Banks / Stores / Airlines at least every month or so trying to push another Visa or a Mastercard into my hands.

 

To the best of my knowledge both of these brands (as well as AMEX) are accepted "internationally".

 

I doubt you need one for domestic use and a different one from the same company for international use.

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6 minutes ago, Grenny said:

Every customer is a win for esim, IMO you are sounding to dismissive.

 

Still, while every customer counts, Ssnake stated as to why he does not want the alternative payment methods.

At the end of the day, its his decision as an entrepreneur...

Maybe i was too dismissive. And I should not have commented on esims relationships with its customers but I have tried to help and now just believe some are being awkward to try and make a point. 

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Posted (edited)

My personal conviction is, that if you could use another methode to pay for SB, many more people would buy it. Here in Germany the use of credit or debit cards is not so popular, but we have many simulation enthusiasts in this country. For the sales figures of the civil flight simulation market for example, it's is one of the top rated countries.

   

And I think just for a smaller company, more people which are buying the product are important, even if there is another way to sell the product to non commercials.

 

For me personaly it was a hurdle for long time to buy SB Pro PE due to the need of a credit card, even I knew about the Pro Personal Edition since version 2. I finally bought version 4 as it signed of that no other realistic modern tank simulation will reach the market in the nearer future.

Edited by Viper1970

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Viper1970 said:

My personal conviction is, that if you could use another methode to pay for SB, many more people would buy it.

 

You are certainly entitled to a personal opinion / conviction but that doesn't make it a universal truth.

 

From memory, Ssnake has gone through this same conversation (or a very close proxy) every time a paid update comes out.

 

I'm sure if it was easy / worthwhile they would have done it already, since they no doubt would like to sell more copies.

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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Posted (edited)

there are obviously cultural attitudes going on here, but if you see it really is that- a perception, depending on how responsible you trust yourself to be. my credit is so clean after years of purchasing and immediately paying off credit cards, I can virtually open up a line of credit for my pet goldfish, if I had one, at lower interest rates than when I first applied for my first card back in the day.  

 even if in your own case you would need to get a credit card with an annual fee and high interest rates, i take the opposite view: apply for a credit card with enough credit to cover the cost of one steel beast purchase, buy, then the next day or two pay off the card, then close that credit line, destroy the card and you're set.

Edited by Captain_Colossus

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My VISA debit card information was stolen by someone in the UK last year. I lived in Japan and the card was a Japanese one. I believe it was stolen by a now defunct online flight simulation store.

 

The card offered significantly less protection to me than an actual credit card would. They refused to reimburse me for more than the equivalent of $250 despite the amount of money siphoned from the account being closer to $500

 

I use a proper credit card now for most purchases. I don't like having my bank account being accessible to anyone who manages to swipe my credit card info. I especially do not trust paypal. I have worked with them both on the business side and personal side of things. They are terrible and I cannot say anything other than to avoid them. Their transaction fee is outrageously high, then on top of that they force you to use their foreign currency exchange rates and make it impossible to withdraw foreign currencies into an account without converting it to whatever the local currency is - even if the account is equipped to handle foreign currencies.

Don't use paypal.

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Posted (edited)

Ok I was also very skeptical about PayPal at the beginning, but I've payed certainly about more than 3000 articles with it since the last years and never had any issue with it. It's simple, quick and comfortable, nothing else. Already all my games I bought from Steam and GOG are more than 700 transactions with PayPal, not to mention ebay, amazon and all my tools for my little workshop I payed via PayPal.

Edited by Viper1970

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For years we offered OkaySoft as an online shop with alternative payment methods as our exclusive reseller. Unfortunately we can no longer work with them. I offered Viper (and basically any user from Europe) to enter negotiations with any other mail order shop that would get recommended to us (that offer is still standing - name any, except OkaySoft). I respect anyone's preference if he doesn't want a credit card. At the same time I find the rejection a bit puzzling in this specific case given that people on this forum offered a workaround and that, by his own admission, he has family that would probably make the purchase for him. Even if those options didn't exist, I don't understand the insistence on PayPal as a payment method when a reseller of his choosing could be named.

 

If none of these options are palatable, because reasons - well, maybe there's something else that isn't suitable for public discussion. Let's move on.

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Posted (edited)

I dont understand why you people here almost fight about me. I did not complain, nor did I attack eSim. They made a decision, I accept that, I fully understand the reasons explained by Ssnake about the high costs, I even like what he said on denying to collect data on his customers and giving it to some foreign company - I just checked in to be sure I understood correctly that there is no alternative anymore, in the pastI used Okaysoft, and years ago also a Visa card . And no, I have no clue on an alternative reselling shop over here. Nor do I want to get a new credit card and pay for that just to get a game.  And while I was a bit disappointed, I did not feel angry about eSim at all.

 

Germany is not Sweden, the UK or the US. Non-Germans underestimate how things are over here, cash still is the preferred paying option for sums of money that are typical for everyday life. Credit cards still are not that much in use over here, although most people have one, I assume. And believe it or not, old dog that I am, none of my remainig few friends have credit cards either. WE JUST DO NOT NEED THEM. We do not travel internationally. And we do not think of it as something "cool". Its stupid in most instances, and costs additional money - what is needless. There is no such thing as a free lunch - free credit cards cost as well. Directly, or indirectly, with or without knowledge, but in the end you pay for it, and not just with your privacy and data that you used to pay with for the "free services" of Google :) , but with money. 

 

I limit shopping online anyway, since many years there are three shops that I frequently use, and who have my bank data to  collect bills via "Bankeinzug", or Paypal. Its a secondary, a transfer banking  account which has always just very limited money, it it gets hacked, the damage will be extremely limited, my main treasury is out of reach.  It is not connected to my main bank account. Why I do so? Because I got bitten, once.  Will not happen again, I learned the lesson, and I learned it the hard way. I tend to avoid buying in shops where I would need to create a new account and sending these data to them. I do not like to have that kind of data being sent to just any shop around, because I happen to know how hilarious bank controls are below certain treshhold sums of money. Bank standards of transaction security are exactly what you do NOT want to have , that bad they are. And this big data business companies today are obsessed with, is something I stay ayway from as best as I can.

 

We can discuss a little bit about money theory, Keynesian insanity, modern economic madness and and debts intentionally being pushed beyond stellar scale to win some more time before the house comes down, if you want. Or about the Argentinian economic and money collapse of the not so distant past, when you had plastic cards in your hand - and could not get money from the automats, or could not defend yourself against the state plundering your savings, because your saving s all where just digital.  Its nasty stuff.  Its the reaosn why they wage war on cash money.  People today take the luxury and comfort they are used to, as granted, and just close both eyes before the thunderstorm building above our heads. We all will get terribly wet, not few of us will evne drown, and then you will find your oh so modern cashless payment scheme not that cool anymore at all, and the Euro and the dolalr and all that illusion about paper snippets holding value. Global debts today are much higher than they were 2007.  - We can discuss all that, yes : I just think it is the wrong board for this kind of discussion.  I only wave at all this just to give you a clue on where I am coming from.

 

eSim made their decision, and I made mine.  We are not compatible anymore, thus we will form no future deal, and so the relationship between seller and buyer now  ends. Normal stuff, happens all around the world all day long, some deals get formed, others not. No need to snap, wonder, critizise or attack anyone for anything, not me, not Ssnake, not anyone. Have fun with 4.1 . Enjoy the sim, it is a good title. I stick with 4.0. No hard feelings. I'm out.

 

Edited by Skybird03

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