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Posted (edited)

i said my piece because there seemed to be misunderstandings folks had about the nature of debit cards, so to clear that up I said what I did: nothing I said was directed at you in particular, but skimming over your last post I must say that reference to macro economics and bringing that in just kind of clinched it- that is a red herring and seems to be a perception as I alluded to earlier if you are applying that to what I suggested, that is, use a credit card for a purchase then close it out. it won't bring you to financial ruin (and if you really want to take this to extremes, you lose money right at this instant if you do nothing with your savings but leave it in a sock drawer or in a savings account, because inflation- the idea that a one time credit purchase of $40-  $50 is only for the ignorant is absurd). do what you will, no hard feelings

Edited by Captain_Colossus

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Skybird03 said:

I just checked in to be sure I understood correctly that there is no alternative anymore, in the pastI used Okaysoft, and years ago also a Visa card .

 

At least two of us have offered an alternative (but perhaps its been buried in subsequent posts):

 

1. I am happy to pay for the upgrade.

 

2. I email you the URL with the license ticket (or put the link in a PM here if you prefer).

 

3. You make a bank transfer to my bank account.

 

4. If you don't transfer the money I just contact eSim and cancel it.

 

You don't need a credit card, no need for a European re-seller, etc.

 

But if you have committed to staying at 4.023 that's fine too.

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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4 hours ago, Skybird03 said:

Germany is not Sweden, the UK or the US. Non-Germans underestimate how things are over here, cash still is the preferred paying option for sums of money that are typical for everyday life. Credit cards still are not that much in use over here, although most people have one, I assume. And believe it or not, old dog that I am, none of my remainig few friends have credit cards either. WE JUST DO NOT NEED THEM. We do not travel internationally. And we do not think of it as something "cool". Its stupid in most instances, and costs additional money - what is needless. There is no such thing as a free lunch - free credit cards cost as well. Directly, or indirectly, with or without knowledge, but in the end you pay for it, and not just with your privacy and data that you used to pay with for the "free services" of Google :) , but with money.

 

 

[Emphasis added.]

 

I admit I know absolutely nothing about the way credit cards work in Germany, but I gather it's much different than the way it is in the U.S. My wife works for a credit union (basically a bank) and they offer credit cards which literally pay you to use them. [Provided, of course, that you pay off your outstanding balances before any interest is incurred.] For each purchase you make, a small amount of money is deposited in your account. There is simply no hidden financial cost to the consumer. Quite the opposite.

 

Now ... I must add that there is a saying here that "if you deal with a company that doesn't seem to want to sell you a product, then you are the product". I can only presume that these types of institutions are somehow profiting from, as Skybird points out, "your privacy and data". I suppose it's up to each individual to decide where they draw the line. And that's fine, as far as I'm concerned.

 

In the end, I think it's extremely unfortunate that there is such an obstacle between eSim and their civilian European customers. I hope that eSim will be able to find a vendor who can accommodate potential customers who have limited purchasing options.

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We are talking about Germany in the 21st century. The centre if the Euro and the one of the richest countries in the world. Not Somalia! I find it unbelievable that the access to methods of payment like credit and debit cards is any different in Germany than to here in the UK. There may well be a cultural reason as to why electronic money is less trusted and less used but it is still available freely. If folks are unwilling to put a bit of effort in or do not want do because of personal reasons that's fine. But dont dress it up as any other reason.

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Posted (edited)

don't get me wrong. if you have some intuition that the credit card companies aren't altruistic, then your instinct is reacting to what is in plain sight. they would not have the money to extend to you in the first place if they were. so if you understand that everything is transactional and contingent that way 

Edited by Captain_Colossus

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Historical background information for incredulous readers:

 

In Germany electronic payment methods were adopted decades earlier than in the US, based on a nation-wide standardized method based on a specific debit card ("EC") standard. When in the US people still wrote a dozen checks at the end of each month, Germans typically had already adopted automatic payments for recurring events such as the rent, electricity, ... and also reverse payments, such as your groceries. This largely eliminated the necessity for a competing cashless payment option, and therefore greatly limited the adoption of credit card - not the least because the credit card fees were substantially higher than the fees that the banks levied on debit card transactions (just as banking fees in Germany were traditionally much lower than in the US). So everything was hunky-dory for Germans until the age of ecommerce. Because ecommerce solutions were largely dominated by US companies, the minimal standard to support are credit cards.

Since then there's an intense fight among German banks about which new payment option to establish for microtransactions and web shop purchases, except that the world isn't waiting for them, whether that's payments by phone bill, PayPal, and a whole host of other solutions with different advantages and disadvantages; the main factor being that they are created and run by companies that are not banks. The consequence is that they are free of a lot of regulation that binds German banks, which is not a universally good thing from a German consumer's point of view. We Germans also have a pretty critical eye on visions of a "cashless society" and (electronic) privacy (which however has the schizophrenic exceptions for Facebook, Amazon, and Google; or PayPal)

In short, the role of early adopter has led Germany into some sort of a dead end that results in isolation.

 

So, there are excellent reasons why credit cards are less popular in Germany (the banks don't want to issue them (they will, for an annual fee, if you insist on one)), the shops don't want them because of the higher fees (some of them still support them though they aren't exactly happy), and much of the everyday reasons why people accustomed to credit cards in other countries are not an issue because functionally debit cards took over that role in Germany well before credit cards were adopted as the go-to solution for cashless payments about a decade or two earlier. Except ecommerce.

So, that's where we are now.

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11 hours ago, Skybird03 said:

I checked the offerings in Germany again, but I will stay in opinion where I am and will not get another credit card again. I just do not need one. And even prepaid cards cost you fees and money, and even "free" credit cards come with terms and minimum timetables that make them not free but surprisngly costly, in the end. I do not need them,  and so I will not pay any credit card company that in the end conducts a man-in-the-middle-attack on the transaction between me and a deal partner. I have also serious fiscal-political and economic arguments against plastic money in general, but that discussion about FIAT money and debt and inflation and all that stuff  belongs not to this board. It is a principle thing why I object to credit cards. They make an already bad, fraudulent counterfeit money system even worse and open the door for even greater abuse by banks and politics. Most people do not give these things a thought. There will come times when people deeply regret this.

 

I wish you all fun with 4.1 .

Without getting in too much Detail the german customers could take into account to open a bank account at the DKB which currently offers a free account with a free Visa Card, at least for e-commerce. When getting Money in non EU states you will be charged with 1,75% after the first year (if you get a Monthly income of 700€ on this account it stays free). 

 

This was at least my way to secure my purchase of Steelbeasts 4.1

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it is the principle of it, and you can get around that principle if you know your market well enough. see the credit card companies will have some idea what cultural attitudes are slow to adopt it- as if they are too blind to do their research. they aren't stupid. they have people  who feed data to computers modelling consumption patterns and human behavior all day long, so any principles anyone has are basically being fed into the calculations as part of that- just a matter of when, that is why even ssnake has to acknowledge there comes a point where refusing payment options starts going nowhere on principle, you have to be able to pay for steel beasts or you don't get to see the show. as hoggydog said not joining the modern world leaves you little choice. and that window keeps closing as time goes on, isn't that so. right

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Posted (edited)

Cleanest solution would be to offer the payment method customers desire, and add the cost to the product price. Straight and clean solution. If you order something in a shop online, usually you have shipping costs added to your chart, too, isnt that common sense. Me, and some others whom I knew as SB tankers over the past years (not at this forum), would be willing to pay MUCH more for the title. But hey, I'm just saying. I always thought that SBP comes too cheap for what it offers and the dedicated support over so many years, I said that already from 2006 on. Personally I would be okay with even a doubling of the product price.

 

And Colossus,

there aint no company doing business for free. Credit card companies included. If outside Germany they pretend to pay you for using them, then they get their moneys from the shop you buy at - and that shop has priced these costs into his prices that you have to pay. Nobody gives you free benefits, forget that. In Germany, you just have to explicitly pay the credit card company directly. When cash money is gone and people have no room to evade to alternative payment methods, then you will see credit card companies letting drop their masks, because then they can do whatever they want. ;) The longer the chain on men in the middle in a production and trade chain, the higher the product/service price becomes. The more hands want to get their share in a transaction, the more expensive it becomes.

 

There aint no such thing as a free lunch. That just doe snot exist. Somebody pays the bill. Always.

 

Plus the profiling done via credit card shopping, the big data collection, the state storing in a database every single pack of chewing gum you buy, and when, and where, and government being able to "print money" even more unscrupulously than they already do. Maybe you are not worrying about what is being done with such data now. But laws can change, politicians are opportunists, freedoms can turn into suppression, and future conditions may base pursuing you on data you left already many years back. Morals and powerpolitics tend to form the two most brutal forms of tyrannies one can imagine.

 

Its all a mental asylum. People think their food comes from the supermarket, and debts vanish if they shuffle them from one bank account to another one. Its craziness all around.

 

BTW, in the nineties I was up and a way for almost two years, North Africa and Middle East. I had no credit card and never needed one. But then, I did travel and stayed for longer times fro Algeria to Iran, but never have stepped a foot onto an airliner. I have a driving license, but last time I drove is 30 years ago, and I never owned a car, never wanted one and never needed one. So yes, I might be a bit eccentric. :D I just mean this: life without these super-cool modern toys and gadgets is possible. Often recommendable. In the present, these things all become tools to control and manipulate the masses. I cannot talk for you or other,s but just for myself, and I feel I owe it to my selfrespect to not actively cooperate in that and demonstrate my servility.

 

I could say lets continue this chat on Twitter or Facebook, but you see - I do not have Twitter or Fcebook. LOL

Edited by Skybird03

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Skybird03 said:

 

 

And Colossus,

there aint no company doing business for free. Credit card companies included. If outside Germany they pretend to pay you for using them, then they get their moneys from the shop you buy at - and that shop has priced these costs into his prices that you have to pay. Nobody gives you free benefits, forget that.

 

this is the red herring you bring up- what is the price of red herring these days? mmm good red herring moving at discount rates i hear.

 

i repeatedly said that it's not about altruism and to think otherwise is naive. is ssnake going to sell you steel beasts or is he going to gift it to you? if you take a girl out on a date, is that not inherently 'paying for it'? i know that doesn't sound romantic to think of dating as a transaction, that's exactly why we sell it as something different to make it sound better than that.

 

virtually every kind of relationship in life is a transaction, that is the way living things are from the exchange of dna to propagate the species is that way, the relationship between you and your employer and between your friends and you- you give something to get something, so if you think that i have made the case somewhere that it isn't like that with credit cards, i'm way ahead of you, since i take it further to say life itself is that way in this universe.

 

so here is my point- fight it on principle if you want, but i'm saying that you don't have to wear yourself out on that with the purchase of steel beasts. it's not that bad to use a credit card for a rare purchase now and then, close out the credit card when you are through with it if your conscience is telling you something. the credit card companies want your business, and that business works on the general strategy that enough consumers tend to pay off only the minimum monthly balance they owe on their bill, which means very slowly paying them off, which means they aren't staying on top of it- the interests payments start to accrue and they aren't actually paying off the principal, they are just staving off the interest owed each month, the consumers stay in the cycle of debt and the credit card companies are enriched by that behavior. for your own part as i said you can get around that just by paying off your cards quickly before that happens- so complaining about interest rates being prohibitive, well i'm telling you how to get around that- don't behave that way which does that, pay them off quickly, and it certainly wouldn't be an issue for a rare purchase of steel beasts. on the other hand if you also throw in some narrative based on larger scheme about that they are in business to make money off of us all, yes of course- show me where i said that wasn't the case, that really is besides the point, because if you understand that is how everything works, then this is not exclusive to credit cards. you're not going to give esim your money for nothing, they're not going to give you a license to use steel beasts for nothing, so guess what- that is the universe itself, where do you draw the line?

Edited by Captain_Colossus

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Well, if the annual credit card fee is 35.- EUR (not uncommon in Germany) and you use it for but a single purchase - and be it SB Pro PE 4.1 - that's entirely unreasonable in relation to the value of the one purchase. Owning a credit card only makes sense if you use it with some regularity.

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Posted (edited)

Colossus,

 

I nowhere indicated that I have a problem with paying for a product. Implying that I did,  I could take a bit queer. I am quite capitalistic in that regard. I neither like to receive nor to provide free rides, and I always pay back what I owe - in good and in bad.  ;)  In fact I said that I would even accept to pay much more for SBP. Things are worth - in prices - what somebody else is willing to give you for it. And I clearly said that it is worth to me more than they ask for.

 

Dont know where you get it that I want a free license from eSim. I just refuse a product if workarounds for it already start with the buying transaction itself - in a shop I then would turn on my heels and walk out, you see. Its just the start, but already no good start.

 

Lets leave it to this.

Edited by Skybird03

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11 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Well, if the annual credit card fee is 35.- EUR (not uncommon in Germany) and you use it for but a single purchase - and be it SB Pro PE 4.1 - that's entirely unreasonable in relation to the value of the one purchase. Owning a credit card only makes sense if you use it with some regularity.

Exactly. :) No hard feelings, Ssnake. Good luck for your business in the future.

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Posted (edited)

A final last ditch offer (since you haven't responded to the two previous attempts):

 

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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21 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

 

????

 

I get letters from Banks / Stores / Airlines at least every month or so trying to push another Visa or a Mastercard into my hands.

 

To the best of my knowledge both of these brands (as well as AMEX) are accepted "internationally".

 

I doubt you need one for domestic use and a different one from the same company for international use.


If you lived in, say... brazil, that would be the case. Since international credit cards are much harder to get, whilst domestic ones are easier. And no, we don't get inundated with letters from credit cards offering international credit cards. Oh, and you should be absolutely careful in even "forgetting" to pay for a month, since about last year, the interest rate was around 700%. It varies between 200% to 600% normally... 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Well, if the annual credit card fee is 35.- EUR (not uncommon in Germany) and you use it for but a single purchase - and be it SB Pro PE 4.1 - that's entirely unreasonable in relation to the value of the one purchase. Owning a credit card only makes sense if you use it with some regularity.

 

in other words, you are obligated to keep the credit line open for one year under the terms? you can't cancel your account? if that so, it may also be related to the cultural attitude. if credit cards are not mainstream in germany, that very resistance is why credit card companies are operating the way they are- it wouldn't be profitable if only a few people have them, so they naturally find ways to milk the few consumers they have. if and when that broad attitude shifts, you'll see that turn around, they will be forced to abandon those kinds of practices. in the us, since credit cards are nearly inseparable from every day life, credit card companies can't get away with that. they have to compete to offer better terms.

 

in all cases however, it is a profit motive for them- playing the numbers game to maximize the margin. so in the us, the strategy is to offer everyone a credit card without those kinds of burdens placed on the consumer, and they will simply make money off of determinstic human behaviors that predictably, as their data shows, many of those consumers will struggle with their payments or otherwise get lazy about them. in germany the formula is different because fewer people have them and the cultural resistance to them- so the fewer that do have them carry the greater burden to fund the industry. i predict it will evolve to be more like the us model if that changes though.

Edited by Captain_Colossus

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Posted (edited)

Gibson,

 

I noticed your offer for sure, and I thank you for it. I nevertheless reject it, and please - do not take it personally, it is not about you perosnally at all. Its just that I tick a bit oldfashioned, maybe. You and me do not know each other, we never even traded a single word in the past 13 years, your offer should not even be needed in any transaction between a company and its customers since them both should be able to deal directly with each other, and finally you would have done me a favour which I cannot give back on equal terms, and as I said: I do not like to owe to others or be owed to by others. There is a company, there is a possible  customer, they either agree on a deal or not, and thats it.  But as I see it, its is just the two of them. If more is needed, then the terms and coidntions are such that I do not deal.

 

Thanks again, and do not take it personally. ;)

 

And now for the third time: I'm out here. Thank you.

Edited by Skybird03

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That's fine. I just wanted to make sure you'd seen it.

 

I would have hated it if you'd "missed out" just because you hadn't seen a post.

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@ssnake

 

Just came to my mind, what about Aerosoft as a replacement for Okaysoft? I've seen they also sell other simulations now. I only did knew them for MSFS Addons in the past, but they now have all kind of simulations at their store, even from other companies.

 

It's only a suggestion, I really have no clue if it is possible or even an option for you

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I suppose they have a web address?

Looks like Aerosoft.com might be the one?

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Posted (edited)
On 6/10/2019 at 1:22 AM, Ssnake said:

Unfortunately, PayPal would make things a lot more complicated for us. Our requests to include PayPal in our payment options weren't met with an offer of conditions that we could have accepted. And unfortunately the change of owner at OkaySoft has also resulted in us being forced to sever our business relationship. If you have a suggestion for some other game-oriented mail order shop in Europe that supports alternative payment options, I'll be happy to contact them and offer them a business partnership.

Nils, you could go for Aerosoft. I did some reviews for them with Angelique Van Campen back in early 201X for FSX), and I bought from them many flight sim related products both for XP10 and FSX and they accept major cards. No problem buying from them. Also, SagePay, or Xsolla (I believe Xsolla is in the states though). 

Edited by wildbillkelsoe

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I know Ssnake already said he doesn't consider Steam as a good alternative. But with the amount of features it offers, one of those being server browser(much easier multiplayer matches), would be quite welcome, including workshop for all the mods. Steam has 1 billion registered users and 90 million active players. https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/steam-one-billion-accounts-1203201159/ So that's a LOT of people. (Of course, there is a LOT of spam, bots and fake accounts that 1 billion,. To give a comparison, Epic Games Store has 85 million REGISTERED people, the launcher required for Fornite)

Eagle Dynamics, despite all its faults, is using Steam, and recently, started to offer pre-orders on their DLCs. Although it is very expensive on my side of the world, and barely takes into account the acquisitive power of those living in other places, it is easier for me to buy from them on Steam than it is for me to buy from eSim. I'll still buy the 4.1, with difficulty, but I will. If the 30% is the issue, you can always get a batch of free Steam keys and sell them on eSim website, so you can get 100% of the profits from those who prefer to give you guys 100% of the cut by ordering directly from eSim. Plus the better and easier auto-update so, hotfixes can be installed faster, without manually checking if there is an update available or something. 

Back to Eagle Dynamics, before they went to Steam, I wouldn't buy anything from them, and for Prepar3D, I rarely buy any addons. If Sim Market offered local payments for my side, it would certainly help a lot. Here's DCS World stats, basic simulator is free, and only recently they began to care for their Steam customers(it was bad before, like they forgot we, figuratively, existed bad) and the bulk of their users are from their own store, https://steamdb.info/app/223750/graphs/ but it can still give you an idea of its numbers. The peak of concurrent users is from the F-14 release 3 months ago. 

Of course, offering Steel Beasts for the general market will attract the people who has no patience for the simulator, and will bash it for its looks, nothing is perfect and we can see that on the recently released Space Engine. Despite being clear on what you get, there were still some negative reviews. But, it is Overwhelmingly positive, at 96% https://store.steampowered.com/app/314650/SpaceEngine/ . 

I think, Ssnake, you should reconsider using Steam. Even Aerosoft is there, at least, hopefully, Aerosoft can convince you guys to use Steam. Although, frankly, you should cut the middle guy and go directly to Steam https://store.steampowered.com/publisher/aerosoft

Laminar Research is also there, with their X-Plane offering:  https://store.steampowered.com/app/269950/XPlane_11/

Steam has also been VERY good to SCS Software with their Truck Simulator series, with their recently launched expansion of the Washington state topping the charts for a few days. A simulator(albeit light in some areas, but still a simulator) topping Steam charts... 
 https://store.steampowered.com/publisher/SCSsoftware Of course, the stats show a 3 year or so game, that went through sales, and is much cheaper than Steel Beasts, plus it is a  "light" simulator, but it should still give a general idea about their numbers: https://steamdb.info/app/270880/graphs/

And this is for Larian Studios, makers of Divinity: Original Sin: https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/steam-ist-nicht-euer-feind-macher-von-divinity-original-sin-2-swen-vincke-interview,3335089.html
(Google translated) 
 

Quote

"Steam is not your enemy, Steam is open, free, fair and doing so much for our hobby - Steam has provided the best prices - for players and developers alike - and it's good for all parts of the PC gaming market for growth in many other software areas that you often do not even see so strongly - VR programs and presentations at trade fairs, for example. "

I know, "free" is not really telling everything in that quote. Free for the user, he play any of the free games, and use most of the features, and not pay a dime. But that 30% gives some leeway to Valve in absorbing some of the extra charges some of the regional payment processors charge. For example, Epic can't do that with their 12%, whilst Valve can with their 30% by coming out of their own pockets. You can also get some revenue with the Steam Trading Cards

Yeah, I sound like I'm selling Steam or a salesman, hahaha, but what I'm doing is for the benefit of eSim, so they can extend their market share, and give us, people with closed markets, and protectionist economies a way to get your product more easily. 

So in summary, please reconsider it. I'll be happy if you, at least, give it a second thought about it. Also check the other stuff Valve offers, like a special branch for beta testing, which is easy to opt-in and opt-out.   

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