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Scrapper_511

Cold War Berlin

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Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2019 at 1:53 PM, Scrapper_511 said:

What was expected to happen in Berlin, had the balloon gone up during the Soviet era?

 

The Berlin Infantry Brigade (UK), Berlin Bde (US) and Forces Françaises à Berlin (FR) would hold and then be over run / destroyed.

 

Limited German resistance would support the non German NATO component but effectively it was an encircled NATO Division.

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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Thanks Gibsonm. Deterrence or Die In Place huh.

 

I’m wondering though, how much effort or credibility was put into defense. Or were the units simply a peacetime garrison?

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They did more than that.

FEX, they pioneered (I think) urban camouflage. They were home of the Allied Liaison teams (aka licensed spies), at least one of them died in the attempt to steal a T-80's user manual from a Soviet motor pool (trying to repeat his prior success with a T-64B's). Generally, the success of their deterrence depended on how much credibility they could generate as a viable defending force. At the same time it was kinda inevitable that from a strictly military point of view their position was untenable. But the freedom of West Berlin depended on their presence, as an attack would have meant an attack not only on Germany as a NATO member, but on three nuclear powers. So, ultimately their status hinged on the credibility of nuclear deterrence.

 

I don't think that any NATO plans existed how Berlin could be liberated over land. If Berlin was to be attacked, the whole world would go to shit soon, or already had.

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Interesting points, Ssnake. I'd actually just seen on TV the story about the tank manuals.

 

I was brainstorming for scenario ideas (Fulda map), OOBs, tactics, etc., and somehow got to thinking about Berlin. Perhaps my research on doctrine prompted my curiosity about how strategy and tactics would (or not) apply in this location.

 

Thank you for the feedback, gentlemen.

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18 hours ago, Panzer_Leader said:

ARMOR magazine ran an article about East German plans for the occupation of West Berlin here: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AuYsbQPUQlikrHPd6vaxPrRev3pL (if this link doesn’t work I’ll replace when I’m at my laptop (currently using iPad)).

 

Wow, thanks for bringing that issue to my attention Panzer Leader. I've been browsing through the ARMOR subscription from the 80's (ever since a link to the magazine was provided...perhaps by you as well, years ago). Haven't quite made it to the 90's issues yet, but thanks for the link...it works from my cell and my desktop, btw.

12 hours ago, DarkAngel said:

just saying

Nice skin, Dark. I'm guessing that's the urban camo Ssnake mentioned above. Since you're here: A Berlin map would be impractical wouldn't it? Too built up for good fps.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Scrapper_511 said:

Nice skin, Dark. I'm guessing that's the urban camo Ssnake mentioned above. Since you're here: A Berlin map would be impractical wouldn't it? Too built up for good fps.

 

Well you'd only really need West Berlin (unlikely that NATO would go East) so that would reduce it a but I don't think SB is really ideal for major urban combat.

 

You'd need to model the S-Bahn and U-Bahn as infiltration routes (indeed I think the East Germans planned to use tunnels a bit like the North Koreans to bypass the frontier obstacle belt).

 

Then you'd need major obstacles such as collapsed multi storey buildings, etc. No doubt both ones prepared in advance for route denial and others just as the result of damage due to Air and Artillery strikes.

 

Finally, you'd probably need to model the nasty stuff too (Chemical weapons, etc.).

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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2 hours ago, Scrapper_511 said:

 

Nice skin, Dark. I'm guessing that's the urban camo Ssnake mentioned above. Since you're here: A Berlin map would be impractical wouldn't it? Too built up for good fps.

I don't think SB would work well with such a dense urban area tbh, It would also be a massive amount of work to make it both look good and perform well.

 

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2 hours ago, DarkAngel said:

I don't think SB would work well with such a dense urban area tbh, It would also be a massive amount of work to make it both look good and perform well.

I don’t know how much fun to play it would be neither.

1 hour ago, Gibsonm said:

This is a pretty good fictional (of course) read on the subject:

Oh man, I really didn’t need to see another WW3 book! 😆 Thanks for the links, Gibsonm.

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9 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

This is a pretty good fictional (of course) read on the subject:

 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35997100-the-battle-for-berlin

 

Or you can get it on Kindle in a bundle with 5 other books of his:

 

https://www.amazon.com/World-War-III-1985-Tales-ebook/dp/B078L2YSNL

 

Hi all. It has been a while offline due RL stuff.

This looks like a great recommendation. I even got it for free in Kindle unlimited. Thanks Gibsonm 😎

While awaiting 4.1 now I have some interesting reading to do. 📖

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White RAL9010

Blue-grey RAL 7031

Pale Brown RAL 8025

 

Straight edges (taped), not airbrushed.

 

The Tankograd 9001 publication contains camo patterns for Chieftain Mk9/C, FV721 Fox, FV701 Ferret, FV 432/30, FV 432 Mk2/1, and FV434.

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From my understanding it is wrong to call it Urban Camouflage. It is closer in concept to "Razzle Dazzle" designed to make the soviets unable to get accurate range.

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Seems like everybody else is seeing it wrong, then. The colors were specifically chosen to match asphalt, house walls, and bare earth. The shapes are all rectangular as you'd see a lot of sharp, rectangular dividing lines in an urban environment. The size of the patches were designed to work best at expected engagement ranges, and all those engagement ranges would have been well within battlesight range (no range estimation required). If there was an urban camouflage paint job, this was it. Even if it has certain similarities to WW1 naval paint patterns.

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I guess the idea is to make the enemy go: "Is that a tank?" / "Where is that tank?" And in that split second hesitation you zap 'em.

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Like all camouflage. It doesn't render you invisible, but it may win you just the one precious moment.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/11/2019 at 12:01 AM, Ssnake said:

They did more than that.

FEX, they pioneered (I think) urban camouflage. They were home of the Allied Liaison teams (aka licensed spies), at least one of them died in the attempt to steal a T-80's user manual from a Soviet motor pool (trying to repeat his prior success with a T-64B's).

 

2 officers died. One a French Adjutant Mariotti (FMLM) in Lettin Halle in 1984 - his vehicle was rammed by a Stasi Ural 375  (2 French NCO were also badly wounded during this incident) and and Major Nicholson (USMLM), one year later in Ludwigslust. He was shot and left bleeding when he exited his vehicle near a soviet base by a sergeant just because he saw an American officer near his sentry post and panicked. (you could read the story https://usmlm.us/)

 

A lot of others members of the ALT were wounded, beaten during those days while the allied never physically assaulted ant soviet one, the detained and released them after few hours of hospitality.

 

There is an excellent book based on interview of UK, French and US officers involved in RDA "countryside photo safari" during the cold war.

 

"Secrets of the Cold War: US Army Europe's Intelligence and Counterintelligence Activities Against the Soviets During the Cold War" by L. McCaslin. Published by Helion and Company.

 

Edited by Galileo

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