SB Pro PE 2.4x Upgrade - Announcements & Discussion

[Retro]

Which puts 150 dollars into perspective perhaps?

25$ is enough to feel violated

[GH_Lieste]

He sure is a cheap date

[Volcano]

While some amongst us are complaining about lack of US equipment (never mind the new M1A1 model), be sure to take it upon yourself to try to convince the US Army to adopt SB Pro as a COTS table top trainer. Good luck with that. If you think that it has not been tried before then you are badly mistaken.

[Wicked]

If VBS2 is so great, how come you are here bemoaning the lack of your pet vehicles in SB?

Just play with them in VBS2, and there is no issue right?

Oh except that VBS2 is several thousand dollars just for the core engine, with additional costs for each additional module... Which puts 150 dollars into perspective perhaps?

For anyone interested. VBS2 VTK is now 500 USD for serious gamers. Its a complete different military sim and I like both Steel Beasts Pro and VBS2 alot. They both get my support.

I am happy to pay whatever the SB Pro team asks for any update/upgrade. With the world financial crisis money does not have any value anyway Or does it?... doh... um...

[Apocalypse 31]

25$ is enough to feel violated

It's not about the money. Its about the audacity.

[GH_Lieste]

Audacity? You have been informed by Nils over the past months what has been fixed & added, you will be given a list of the final features when the code is fixed, and you will have plenty of time to consider whether you want to update your installation or continue with 2.328(hotfix) or 2.370.

You feel violated by being asked to make a choice?

[GaryOwen]

And those would be?

CCTT

AGTS

[Ssnake]

in the future, when you release content that you wish to charge for, call it an 'expansion pack', not an 'update'.

We have a pretty stringent and rigidly applied terminology:

• Patch:
  No feature additions, just a fix of existing functionality (always free)
• Update:
  Minor feature additions, plus (usually) a number of bug fixes (always free)
• Upgrade:
  Major feature addition, plus (usually) a number of bug fixes (usually we will charge for it)

With "Expansion Pack" I would associate a theme-oriented content addition but not necessarily a major change in program features. Since SB Pro is mostly a feature monster and not so much a content-heavy package, I think that the current terminology is most appropriate. However, I can understand that some may not have the same ideas than I have. Another reason why we're not selling SB Pro PE as a game but rather a simulation tool with some entertainment elements.

Now, for me, I have no problem whatsoever paying for new content. From what I understand, there's plenty of new features, new vehicles, new commands, and the new 3d infantry, that will make the expansion pack well worth the cash. That said, where do I sign up?

There is not THAT much new content (about a dozen new scenarios), and certainly no 3D characters (don't know from where you got that impression).

[Ssnake]

CCTT

AGTS

Well, I feel honored that you think that SB Pro is a comparison to CCTT, which just makes my point - 800 Million US Dollars for 20% more functionality, sounds like a good deal.

The point of SB Pro is not to replace these sims, but to supplement them in preparation and knowledge retainment. The US Army has three CCTTs in total, if I am not mistaken, and pays a double-digit million dollar figure each year to operate them. Consequently soldiers must be rotated through these simulation centers, so that the individual soldier gets exposed to CCTT maybe once every two years, or two to three times in his entire career. Somehow I have doubts that this is a sufficient frequency to retain most of the know-how that could, in theory, be trained here. So, will a simulator that can train 20% more at a much lower training frequency really yield better training results than a simulation that could be used at any time?

By the way, our customers are building simulator cabins with SB Pro as well. If you integrate them with a nearby classroom, I think you get about optimal results at company tactical level with maybe a fifth of the investment volume that traditional simulator cabins require. In other words, nations can have five times as many sim centers with SB Pro at the same costs, or five times higher training frequencies.

All in all, probably not the worst ratio of training bang for the buck.

[Ssnake]

What happens when you skip an upgrade till next upgrade?

Will I need to pay for all previous updates I did not want? Or will it function with just that upgrade?

I can't guarantee that it will be possible to skip upgrades. We haven't made a decision here yet.

[Volcano]

Well, having spent hundreds of hours in CCTT, to think that it is better than SB Pro is laughable at best. The only thing that CCTT has going for it is the hardware integration with the vehicle turret and control handles, but I suppose any software can be tailored to use such an interface. Of course to CCTT's credit, it was around about 5 years before SB1 came into existence and unlike SB, CCTT does not evolve with updates (to my knowledge). Also, CCTT is much better than the old SIMNET.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Volcano
typo

[Apocalypse 31]

You feel violated by being asked to make a choice?

Wrong.

I feel violated because I see this going on alot more in the gaming industry as of late. Developers making customers pay hard earned cash for "upgrades" with little or no change of content or features.

People work hard for their money and dont want to feel like they're getting ripped off having to dish out $25 for an 'upgrade' that offers very little in terms of gameplay.

[Ssnake]

I feel violated because ... Developers making customers pay hard earned cash for "upgrades" with little or no change of content or features.

Get a grip. This nonsense is pathetic.

It's very simple. You don't like it, you don't buy it. End of story.

If you think that 9.5 pages (still counting) of new features, improvements, changes, and bugfixes aren't sufficient - well then, don't. No developer is making a customer to pay for anything, you are not being violated - at least not by any software developer. There is no such thing as a "forced offer". Each and any purchase is entirely voluntary.

For two and a half years you have received free updates, more than twice as long as we initially guaranteed. We then announced a price of $35 last November, and managed to reduce it to just $25.- for those who want to minimize costs and feel that they don't need the new manual. We offer secondary licenses at just $25. This is the red line. We've gone this far, but if you think you can apply emotional pressure by playing the victim, you've come to the wrong place.

You have every right to demand the impossible, just like we have every right to ignore unreasonable demands. At such a point no meaningful communication can happen. You could be aware of the economical constraints of our work if you actually cared, I've described them often enough. Anyone with brains will understand that our freedom to cater to our customers' interests is limited by these constraints. So, you can either accept them, or stop buying our products. But do yourself a favor and stop pretending that we're traumatizing you emotionally.

[Apocalypse 31]

No developer is making a customer to pay for anything, you are not being violated - at least not by any software developer. There is no such thing as a "forced offer". Each and any purchase is entirely voluntary.

Sure. Sounds dandy. But if I dont buy it then I'm out of the loop when it comes to multiplayer. Kiss that goodbye

For two and a half years you have received free updates, more than twice as long as we initially guaranteed. We then announced a price of $35 last November, and managed to reduce it to just $25.

So are we going to have to pay for upgrades from now on? Even bug fixes to your own game? Seriously, man?

But do yourself a favor and stop pretending that we're traumatizing you emotionally.

It's not traumatizing me. I'll probably buy it anyway. BUT I can easily see what companies are solely out for the green and which are really interested in developing something people can actually use or enjoy.

I got it.

[outontheop]

My point is the US Army already HAS simulators that they're pretty well committed to, and which are good simulators. The point is, as you said, it is pointless to 'try convincing the US Army to buy SB Pro'. The fact is, when and if they decide they need a better simulator, they'll build one from the ground up.

So since we already KNOW that the US Army won't buy your product, and we already KNOW the priority given to additions that aren't government funded, we can make a pretty reasonable deduction that private consumers won't be seeing any new US kit for a while.

Not that I am against the European stuff on it's own ground, but it does get kind of boring just getting yet ANOTHER version of the Leopard. Hell, I'd be thrilled to get ANYTHING different- while I'm pulling for M1A2SEP and M2A3, I'd be exstatic over a crewable Ariete, or Le Clerc, or anything Russian.

[GGTharos]

It sounds like you don't think that upgrades are hard work.

I would imagine that this is because you do no software work whatsoever, so let me put it this way to you:

Would you accept to not charge for work done on oil changes for a customer you sold a car to? It's just 'maintenance'. Would you not accept not charging for adding that spoiler? It's just an 'upgrade' after all. It doesn't really make a car faster nor does it get you points for anything

But hey, you know what ... you SHOULD do those things for me ... for free! 'Cause that's what your work is worth.

That's what you've said here.

[JAS39]

lol..........well said...........

[Kingtiger]

whats the problem? 25USD... come on, I cant ewen go out with some friends on an average day without spending less then 25USD so 25USD for all the improvements that are listed is cheap.

[GaryOwen]

Well, I feel honored that you think that SB Pro is a comparison to CCTT, which just makes my point - 800 Million US Dollars for 20% more functionality, sounds like a good deal.

Ssnake,

CCTT & AGTS are both Lockheed Martin products. I'd bet that if eSim put a half dozen or so retired general officers on the payroll, y'all could get a fat contract as well.

[Chaplain]

I have had more than one sermon inspiration come from the SB community. I feel another one coming on. :angel:

[Scrapper_511]

LOL. Every year that passes without M1A2's, Challengers, Warriors and LeClercs, every year that passes without a crewable Warsaw Pact MBT, and every year that passes without a NATO vs WP campaign (or scenarios) add-on, I ask myself: "Is there a better choice out there besides SPProPE?"

NOPE.

That is the simple reason why I keep it to myself when I have legitimate gripes similar to Apocalypses' (seriously, I hear you man). Outontheop reiterates another reality check; new features are largely dictated by paying military customers.

I will continue being a paying customer in hopes that one day, Steel Beasts will develop into a true successor to my favorite tank sim, M1TP2. Which is saying, I loved those scenarios and campaigns (which included at least cameo appearances of major European tanks and IFVs), that gave a distinct Coldwar Era immersion. Otherwise, it holds nothing next to Steel Beasts.

Finally, I'd like to add that my support for this sim is largely born from the extraordinary customer support that we all have been priviliged with around here.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Scrapper_511

[Ssnake]

So are we going to have to pay for upgrades from now on? Even bug fixes to your own game? Seriously, man?

If you are interested in facts, the answer is on page 11 of this thread.

[stalintc]

whats the problem? 25USD... come on, I cant ewen go out with some friends on an average day without spending less then 25USD so 25USD for all the improvements that are listed is cheap.

Haha yeah KT you hit the nail on the head there!

The only time ive spent less than that is when its been my birthday, but then ive been too drunk to realise whether I have spent anything or not

however I guess you cant stop the whine train "whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnne whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnneee"

LOL

[JanTog]

The only time ive spent less than that is when its been my birthday, but then ive been too drunk to realise whether I have spent anything or not

When I'm in the overthrow of beer and wiskey, i am using about 50 USD a day, 5 - 7 days a week. ( not for the moment ) :drink:

So I will buy the upgrad at any price, to keep me at home. :men_ani:

[alpha6]

Haha yeah KT you hit the nail on the head there!

The only time ive spent less than that is when its been my birthday, but then ive been too drunk to realise whether I have spent anything or not

however I guess you cant stop the whine train "whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnne whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnneee"

LOL

you have a good point I mean like I'm poor as hell and I can aford it