The merkava.

[oscar19681]

I like this tank its quite an interesting and unique tank. So will we ever see it in sbp?

[DarkLabor]

Don't dream too much, but I share your point of view on this tank, just like the STRV103C, witch is the stranger tank I ever seen!

[Skybird03]

I like this tank its quite an interesting and unique tank. So will we ever see it in sbp?

You just need to talk the IDF into SBP, that's all to make your dream come true.

[Hedgehog]

So how do we go about that then?

any ideas?

[oscar19681]

I think you should not take skybirds repley to litteraly. I think he,s just trying to say that its not imposslibe thats all.

[LarryHookins]

Last I heard (many years ago... either SB1 days or M1 Tank Platoon 2 days) everything about the Merkava was classified. One guy in the community was in the IDF and posted some interesting info about the Merkava... then realized he wasn't supposed to and deleted it. I used to have the file somewhere. That was probably 3 or 4 computers ago.

The Merkava is indeed an interesting tank, and I'd love to see it in the game.

Larry

[Skybird03]

I think you should not take skybirds repley to litteraly. I think he,s just trying to say that its not imposslibe thats all.

No. I meant I consider it to be extremely unlikely to see the Merk in SBP-PE as long as the Israelis do not start to buy SBP-PE for training - at that point it will become very likely. For the most, military customer's orders exclusively decide what vehicles get implemented - not the gaming market.

I personally consider the latest Merkavas to be an interesting concept, but slightly overestimated in armour, even when they have the engine in the front. The tanks suffered heavy casualties to ATGMs in the last Lebanon war, which of course also may have been caused by poor tactical leadership. It was said repatedly that we do talk about losses to modern ATGMs as well as old ones. I do not even dare to imagine what a modern dedicated German or American tank round would do to their armour.

Preferring the Leopard 2A6 each time.

[DemolitionMan]

Well a Merkava mk1 is now exhibited in the Panzermuseum Munster, Germany, so at least Nils would have a good example for reference.

[tankenator]

No. I meant I consider it to be extremely unlikely to see the Merk in SBP-PE as long as the Israelis do not start to buy SBP-PE for training - at that point it will become very likely. For the most, military customer's orders exclusively decide what vehicles get implemented - not the gaming market.

I personally consider the latest Merkavas to be an interesting concept, but slightly overestimated in armour, even when they have the engine in the front. The tanks suffered heavy casualties to ATGMs in the last Lebanon war, which of course also may have been caused by poor tactical leadership. It was said repatedly that we do talk about losses to modern ATGMs as well as old ones. I do not even dare to imagine what a modern dedicated German or American tank round would do to their armour.

Preferring the Leopard 2A6 each time.

It is easy to armchair quarterback, the leo 2 series has not recieved the combat experience that the merkava has, maybe it would do better, maybe not.

[dejawolf]

Well a Merkava mk1 is now exhibited in the Panzermuseum Munster, Germany, so at least Nils would have a good example for reference.

that merkava has been welded shut, and stripped of all internal equipment.

additionally, its an experimental merkava tank.

[HotTom]

I personally consider the latest Merkavas to be an interesting concept, but slightly overestimated in armour, even when they have the engine in the front. The tanks suffered heavy casualties to ATGMs in the last Lebanon war, which of course also may have been caused by poor tactical leadership. It was said repatedly that we do talk about losses to modern ATGMs as well as old ones. I do not even dare to imagine what a modern dedicated German or American tank round would do to their armour.

Preferring the Leopard 2A6 each time.

Skybird, do a little research. The Israelis had a total of 18 tanks seriously damaged and only two completely destroyed, both by IEDs. Many of the tank casualties were a result of a tank unit advancing without any infantry support and tank crews did not use the smoke screening abilities for reasons later attributed to lack of training:

http://www.defense-update.com/analysis/lebanon_war_3.htm

and

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525995589&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

That seems highly comparable to the experience of other MBTs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

How many Leopards have been lost in Iraq and Afghanistan -- including the 2A6?

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/afghanistan/story.html?id=149620

And British Challenger tanks:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/story/0,,2064149,00.html

And Abrams tanks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

"I do not even dare to imagine what a modern dedicated German or American tank round would do to their armour."

What???? Again, do some research. The Merk is in every way a world-class tank and is considered the best-protected tank in the world.

HT

[Ssnake]

I don't think that M1s or Leo 2s would have fared better in Lebanon. Contrary to media hyperventilation the Merkava performed pretty well, given the circumstances.

[Skybird03]

I did not wish to say that the Merkava is a bad tank. I was referring to several random readings from the last two years where Western militaries expressed doubts that Israelis type of armour composition is up on par with Western technology in this field, witch of course always is necessarily a bit hypothetical, of course.

I am also aware of that the IDF operated "sub-optimal" on a tactical level in Lebanon. The lacking training skill of the IDF due to it'S slow change from a combat force to a policing force in the long years of occupation has been illustrated and debated in many essays and critical articles especially in Israeli papers, some of which attacked the government head on over the badly prepared way in whcih they fought that war, and the since years insufficient funding. There were groups of infantry that had to go into battle with rifles from the 50s, because more modern rifles were not available for them, also some ridiculously old radios had to be reactivated, with the to be expected communication problems.

I must admit that I added troop carriers and tanks together when saying they had heavy tank casualties. The last number I remember from an Israeli source said something like close to 60 vehicles being taken out (destroyed or damaged beyond operational status).

[political mode on] All in all the IDF was not happy with the results of the war, the tactical performance of low and high ranking officers, the interaction and cooperation of infantry and tanks, and lacking basic equipment. There also was a massive lack of intelligence data, a massive underestimation of the the enemy's capabilties, and an overestimation of one's own capabilties (which since then has lead to several very massive training efforts and practices to learn practice again on a wide front and affecting practically all the army, iit is so massive an effort that early this year it was being mistaken for an Israeli preparation for all-oit war against probably Syria). Compared to the scale of the attack on Lebanon/Hezbullah, they have no reason to be happy indeed - their enemies soon after were stronger again than before, and now are reported to have received more modern ATGMs and in higher numbers again like they had before the war, Hamas regrouping and reorganising to copy the successful way of equipping, training and fighting of Hisbullah - while the IDF's nimbus of being invincible has taken a massive blow, "de-frightening" and encouraging further aggression against them. Israel is no more as feared as it was before - admits Israeli analysts themselves, quoted in Israeli press last year. Comparing these meagre results to the massive damage to civilian infrastructure that Hezbollah succesfully has provoked, turned it into a PR-desaster for Israel, and a huge propaganda victory for Hezbullah. [political mode off ]

[tarball]

The IDF complacency I am reading about in these debriefs on the 2006 war remind me of descriptions of the IDF just before the Yom Kippur war in 1973...

A force lulled into complacency since 1967

A force somewhat deluded with their on grandeur

Surprise at the new ATGMs that the arabs are fielding

Inability to effectively use armor (at the start, things shape up quickly)

Of course, the parallels aren't perfect and each war was its own animal. I'd say that this fighting force is among the most used in the civilized world and looking over their shoulders when "lessons learned" are being discussed could be fruitful.

Anyhow, yeah, it sure would be cool to see that tank ingame.

[GH_Lieste]

Reckon on it being SB2 (and probably a later add-on) rather than SBPro-PE though..

[HotTom]

[political mode on] All in all the IDF was not happy with the results of the war, the tactical performance of low and high ranking officers, the interaction and cooperation of infantry and tanks, and lacking basic equipment. There also was a massive lack of intelligence data, a massive underestimation of the the enemy's capabilties, and an overestimation of one's own capabilties (which since then has lead to several very massive training efforts and practices to learn practice again on a wide front and affecting practically all the army, iit is so massive an effort that early this year it was being mistaken for an Israeli preparation for all-oit war against probably Syria). Compared to the scale of the attack on Lebanon/Hezbullah, they have no reason to be happy indeed - their enemies soon after were stronger again than before, and now are reported to have received more modern ATGMs and in higher numbers again like they had before the war, Hamas regrouping and reorganising to copy the successful way of equipping, training and fighting of Hisbullah - while the IDF's nimbus of being invincible has taken a massive blow, "de-frightening" and encouraging further aggression against them. Israel is no more as feared as it was before - admits Israeli analysts themselves, quoted in Israeli press last year. Comparing these meagre results to the massive damage to civilian infrastructure that Hezbollah succesfully has provoked, turned it into a PR-desaster for Israel, and a huge propaganda victory for Hezbullah. [political mode off ]

I agree with you completely there.

Merry Xmas, BTW

HT

[Hackworth]

...How many Leopards have been lost in Iraq and Afghanistan -- including the 2A6?

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/afghanistan/story.html?id=149620

...

I read in another thread here (in Ground Zero I believe) that this tank was repaired and back in the field within a month or something like that. .02

Yay! I want a Merkava! even one with everything welded shut

[Norfolk]

Whatever problems there may have been with the IDF forces in Lebanon last year (and even now to a certain extent), the Merkava is simply a magnificent tank. If we were to design a new Tank to replace the Leopard II, the Abrams, and the Chally, something along the lines of Merkava may be a very good way to go, especially the front-mounted engine, the low-mounted gun trunnions inside the turret, and a rear-hatch at the back of the hull. Those three things alone are worth a new tank design.

[dejawolf]

Whatever problems there may have been with the IDF forces in Lebanon last year (and even now to a certain extent), the Merkava is simply a magnificent tank. If we were to design a new Tank to replace the Leopard II, the Abrams, and the Chally, something along the lines of Merkava may be a very good way to go, especially the front-mounted engine, the low-mounted gun trunnions inside the turret, and a rear-hatch at the back of the hull. Those three things alone are worth a new tank design.

what do you want more, challenger 1 / 2 , merkava mk1 / 2 / 3/ 4, or M60A3.

[Norfolk]

what do you want more, challenger 1 / 2 , merkava mk1 / 2 / 3/ 4, or M60A3.

Merkava Mk 4!:smilelove-1:

[GH_Lieste]

M60 series, definately more useful - we already have Analogues for the others, but nothing that precisely blends the characteristics of the M60 - it isn't as agile as the Leo1, isn't as well protected as the Cheiftan, is very large, but has a good gun/ammo combination as well as an advanced TTS/IFC system.

It is also the vehicle the T72 was intended to fight - and should give a clear indication why the M1 was considered such an improvement despite its limitations/compromises.

The basic vehicle can be used for much of the family with no real change in concept, and with ERA added can be useful right up to the present day...

[Hackworth]

You're a mean and cruel one Deja for putting such a feast on the table with only one to choose.

all of them! okay, a Challenger 2 (but I really, really want a Merk 4! and a M60!, and a Challey 1, oooooo and a Cheiftan too!)

[dejawolf]

You're a mean and cruel one Deja for putting such a feast on the table with only one to choose.

all of them! okay, a Challenger 2 (but I really, really want a Merk 4! and a M60!, and a Challey 1, oooooo and a Cheiftan too!)

forget to add the M1A2 to the pool just to increase the pain, and split the decisions up a bit more.

[TopKick]

M60A3 please!

[Kingtiger]

Not hard at all to pick!