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Assassin 7

Question about BK-31 Heat-FS-T [FIXED]

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First test mission: thfgh.sce , you need to open with the mission editor and play from the red side, you start in cover, so you need to advance like 200-300 m north to see the enemy.

 

I repeated the test with another mission to confirm it wasn't an extreme case, and the results are the same(6 kills with 8 shots, 1 leo resisted 3 shoots, other 5  killed with first shot), i upload the mission and the aar (test-of-26).

thfgh.sce test-of-26.sce test-of-26_13428_081319DESKTOP-VEAL1135.aar

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3 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Computer-controlled crews would always prefer APFSDS against heavily armored targets. Even the BK-31 isn't a reliable tank killer with its overpressure, and there's no conceivable HE round design that makes any sense for the 125mm caliber that will always be a reliable tank killer from overpressure alone.

But, we need to make sure that a 155mm or 152mm artillery shell that explodes in close proximity has a good chance of rendering a tank, even a heavily protected one, inoperable, even if the fragments by themselves are incapable of perforating the armor, simply because HE artillery killing tanks is a reality.

 

Our new HE model uses the amount of HE filler as the first objective parameter (you can find such info in horribly priced books like Jane's Ammunition Handbook/Jane's Weapons: Ammunition (at about $1,000.- a copy...)), the type of explosive as a minor modificator (TNT, HMX, RDX, ...), and finally a subjective scaling factor that we can use to tone down/tune up the effect if we have very good reason to do so; typically it is set to 50% and will rarely deviate from that.

 

 

As far as the BK-31 is concerned, the facts are that it contains approximately 1850g (happy to adjust that if a reliable source can be presented) of A-IX2 equivalent HE filler (Jane's Weapons: Ammunition, 2016/17 edition, pg 632), and lacking any other hints the scaling factor is currently at its default setting of 50%. Contrast this BK-31 round's amount of HE filler with that of a 122mm artillery shell like OF-462, which is about 3500g TNT equivalent. The 122mm artillery shell is not terribly dangerous to tanks; the BK-31, being a direct fire munition aimed at the center of the target, simply gets much, much closer (which is the only reason why it can have an appreciable overpressure effect at all). This might help to explain why a round that has maybe just 60...70% of the power of an artillery shell that's regarded as relatively weak against tanks creates some overpressure effect with regularity. But a reliable tank killer it is not.

Thank you.  That is the answer I was looking for.  It was the AI I was wondering about.  I was just wondering if you know a kinetic round won't penetrate, would you fire HE or HEAT that might cause enough damage to make it worth it.  Not expecting a fancy AI response...just wondering.

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1 hour ago, Colebrook said:

It would be interesting if some else test these missions and post the results.

I did both scenarios..  and  my results were quite different.  Most of the time Leopards were able to take many hits before those were destroyed.  

8

8

11

4

 

On other test.. I hit leopards with like..  25 rounds and was able to kill only 2 leopards before I got fustrated.   Though... most of the remaining Leopards were severely damaged by then.

 

 

thfgh_4256_081319LUMI-PC1354.aar

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Posted (edited)

I just ran a quick test using loading up the T-72 with HEAT and it took several BK-31s to kill each Leo 2.  I also tried letting the computer run the T-72.  I removed all Sabot and HEAT rounds.  The T-72 never wanted to fire the HE at the Leos. 

 

I added the AAR and scenario file.

 

1st Leo 2 - 3 BK-31 shots

2nd Leo 2 - 6-7 shots (lost track after 5)

3rd Leo 2 - 1 shot

4th Leo 2 - 1 shot

 

One thing I noticed, and it makes sense from my inexperienced eye,  is that looking at all the AARs, the kill shots were almost all hull shots.  Didn't do any detailed analysis.  Its just something that caught my eye.

OF26 Test against Leo 2E_10264_081319LAPTOP-KVNHE0842.aar OF26 Test against Leo 2E.sce

Edited by thewood

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I just realised that Ammunition on Colebrooks test mission wasn't BK-31 Heat-FS-T.  So I changed ammunition to that and re-run test.  BK-31 Heat-FS-T faired much better. Even when so rarely killed Leo2E on first hit.  Most of the time leos took 3+  hits.     Also kill shots were almost all  at the hull, near ammunition compartment.  

 

 

test-of-BK.31 HEAT FS-T_7056_081319LUMI-PC1604.aar

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Yes, we know the BK-31 kills much easier - its much more powerful than the OF-26.  We are concentrating on the OF-26 because this shouldn't be possible at all.  The OF-26 is the key here to finding the issue, which is why I was concentrating on that.

 

But that said, good news:

 

We have been able to reproduce this internally now - it seems to be very range dependent.  In my test earlier I was pretty close to the target (because I was trying to hit at a precise location), but it seems like kills occur at a specific range (at least as far as we can tell). This means that the issue is important, and we are prioritizing it for investigation, but given the specifics involved for it to happen (why I couldn't see it after 50 to 90 impacts at a different range), its not something everyone should panic about.

 

So we are investigating it and I will update here on the result. Until then, we are good on information. Thanks for all the help. 🙂

 

 

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So further investigation...

 

There seems to actually be a small probability for a kill there from HE, where none should exist, but the probably is very low. Still not seeing the reliability mentioned in the initial comments (certainly not 3 shots for 3 kills),  but that might have to do with a strange random number seeding in that test. Due to its unreliability (as far as we can see), the issue should be negligible until the next patch. Clearly if you shoot at a tank enough with HE then you will get the kill, but this doesn't seem to be a reliable way to do that (no different than you could do in 4.0 with the quirky old HE).

 

But in any case the numbers will be adjusted to close the loophole in the next patch.

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Thanks for the update.

 

So no need to go through scenarios and remove that ammunition nature (given the low probability and likelihood to be fixed in the not too distant future)?

 

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Correct, no need for that.

 

Here are the facts as we know them:

  • HE *is* effective against tanks (regardless of this kill probability), so it would make sense to engage tanks with HE to cause crippling damages anyway. The fact is, even without the possibility of a kill, HE now generates very powerful fragments that can cause serious damages, combined with all the overpressure non-kill damages too. So, its not a cheat to use HE on tanks.  Odds are though that you won't get a kill, and that KE or HEAT would be more reliable in this regard.
  • There is a small probability of a tank kill currently for tank fired HE rounds, and this probability of the kill, like everything else, is heavily dependent on the random number seed that is generated at the start of a scenario (think of the "die rolls).
  • This probability of HE vs. tank kill existed in 4.0 with old HE (probably more so).

 

That said, (and this is not directed at anyone here specifically) if someone has figured out some exploit here -- a precise location to shoot the HE round to get a near 100% kill probability (because that person is systematically studying and dissecting the vehicles to find this out, for example) and if they apply that to TGIF (not one kill, but throughout the scenario in several situations), then they will be banned for cheating as this will not be tolerated. We will keep an eye out for this, obviously.

 

But in general, using HE on tanks is fine at the moment if it takes 50+ HE rounds average to get a kill on average, and this is acceptable to the degree that its no worse than 4.0 behavior, at least as far as we can see from the internal investigation and tests that could not repeat the "high probability" results.

 

So, no reason to remove HE,HEAT,HESH,ATGM rounds in scenarios until the fix. The fix is essentially just going to remove all probability -- maybe not for the most powerful BK-31 and AT-14, but at least for the OF-26 and below.

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1 hour ago, Volcano said:

Correct, no need for that.

 

Here are the facts as we know them:

  • HE *is* effective against tanks (regardless of this kill probability), so it would make sense to engage tanks with HE to cause crippling damages anyway. The fact is, even without the possibility of a kill, HE now generates very powerful fragments that can cause serious damages, combined with all the overpressure non-kill damages too. So, its not a cheat to use HE on tanks.  Odds are though that you won't get a kill, and that KE or HEAT would be more reliable in this regard.
  • There is a small probability of a tank kill currently for tank fired HE rounds, and this probability of the kill, like everything else, is heavily dependent on the random number seed that is generated at the start of a scenario (think of the "die rolls).
  • This probability of HE vs. tank kill existed in 4.0 with old HE (probably more so).

 

That said, (and this is not directed at anyone here specifically) if someone has figured out some exploit here -- a precise location to shoot the HE round to get a near 100% kill probability (because that person is systematically studying and dissecting the vehicles to find this out, for example) and if they apply that to TGIF (not one kill, but throughout the scenario in several situations), then they will be banned for cheating as this will not be tolerated. We will keep an eye out for this, obviously.

 

But in general, using HE on tanks is fine at the moment if it takes 50+ HE rounds average to get a kill on average, and this is acceptable to the degree that its no worse than 4.0 behavior, at least as far as we can see from the internal investigation and tests that could not repeat the "high probability" results.

 

So, no reason to remove HE,HEAT,HESH,ATGM rounds in scenarios until the fix. The fix is essentially just going to remove all probability -- maybe not for the most powerful BK-31 and AT-14, but at least for the OF-26 and below.

So just clarify your saying during TGIF if another tank is killed by a Heat round there is going to be an investigation on that incident? If this is a cause for concern then why put the option on the Table? I mean you playing against other players and knowing that a Heat could kill a tank now. I’m personally now going to be considered out of rounds when I only have heat left to fire. 

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I don't think that this is what Volcano wrote, or what he meant to say. The conditions are pretty well defined - firing HE rounds (not HEAT), repeatedly, into a very specific location.

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2 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

I don't think that this is what Volcano wrote, or what he meant to say. The conditions are pretty well defined - firing HE rounds (not HEAT), repeatedly, into a very specific location.

So shoot the tank elsewhere to allow it to shoot back at me? I don’t understand how you can sit there and say don’t shoot a tank here? What? There are many factors to consider dispersion in Steel Beasts, shooting while not trying to be shot and shooting on the move.

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I really have no idea what you're trying to say, or what you think I'm saying. Please read again, very carefully, what Volcano wrote, and interpret it in the most harmless and innocuous way possible. This conspiracy theory is getting ridiculous.

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5 minutes ago, Assassin 7 said:

So shoot the tank elsewhere to allow it to shoot back at me? I don’t understand how you can sit there and say don’t shoot a tank here? What? There are many factors to consider dispersion in Steel Beasts, shooting while not trying to be shot and shooting on the move.

 

 

Seriously, what are you talking about?

 

My post is pretty clear, but I will paste it again (with some added emphasis to the relevant parts):

 

"...if someone has figured out some exploit here -- a precise location to shoot the HE round to get a near 100% kill probability (because that person is systematically studying and dissecting the vehicles to find this out, for example) and if they apply that to TGIF (not one kill, but throughout the scenario in several situations), then they will be banned for cheating as this will not be tolerated. We will keep an eye out for this, obviously."

 

Example for you:

 

In a scenario, you found "the spot" and you kill 3 tanks with 3 HE rounds in the same spot.  Yes, banned.  I guess if you cannot exercise some self restraint then you should avoid playing in TGIF until the next patch.

 

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2 minutes ago, Volcano said:

 

 

Seriously, what are you talking about?

 

My post is pretty clear, but I will paste it again (with some added emphasis to the relevant parts):

 

"...if someone has figured out some exploit here -- a precise location to shoot the HE round to get a near 100% kill probability (because that person is systematically studying and dissecting the vehicles to find this out, for example) and if they apply that to TGIF (not one kill, but throughout the scenario in several situations), then they will be banned for cheating as this will not be tolerated. We will keep an eye out for this, obviously."

 

Example for you:

 

In a scenario, you found "the spot" and you kill 3 tanks with 3 HE rounds.  Yes, banned.  I guess if you cannot exercise some self restraint, then you should avoid playing in TGIF until the patch.

I can restrain but the point is that if I know how to kill you when I’m against you then why not kill you? How do we know what exploit has been identified? If any. Your basically saying shoot center mass on all tanks when I now shooting a leopard in the right lower hull facing me will send the Turret sky high with a Heat round 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Assassin 7 said:

 How do we know what exploit has been identified?

If you have found a 100% repeatable case then it behooves you to tell us Explicitly Where it is and the circumstances under which it is repeatable.

Edited by DarkAngel

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7 minutes ago, Assassin 7 said:

...the point is that if I know how to kill you when I’m against you then why not kill you? How do we know what exploit has been identified? If any. Your basically saying shoot center mass on all tanks when I now shooting a leopard in the right lower hull facing me will send the Turret sky high with a Heat round 

That's not what he wrote. You're putting words in his mouth.

I'm not going to run around refuting every ridiculous claim you're making.

 

Take a break. Re-read what Volcano wrote. Then we can continue the debate. Until then, we're done here.

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, DarkAngel said:

If you have found a 100% repeatable case then it behooves you to tell us Explicitly Where it is.

No I haven’t but there are basic known spots to shot tanks to kill them such as a Leopard 

Edited by Assassin 7

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2 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

That's not what he wrote. You're putting words in his mouth.

I'm not going to run around refuting every ridiculous claim you're making.

 

Take a break. Re-read what Volcano wrote. Then we can continue the debate. Until then, we're done here.

Understood I’m just concern and I clearly understand what Volcano is saying. 

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I run another tests at different distances with similar results, 6 leos destroyed with 8-11 rounds( in total), and aiming at center of mass.Most of the tanks were killed on first shoot, but 1 or 2 needed 3 shoots. Maybe my RNG is broken?

test-2_10768_081419DESKTOP-VEAL0150.aar test-2_10768_081419DESKTOP-VEAL0145.aar test-of-26_10768_081419DESKTOP-VEAL0135.aar

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