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ChrisWerb

Is there any way to see if an AT weapon can be fired from inside a building? [RESOVED]

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Hi.  I just had a Scimitar taken out by a PG-7L round fired from inside a house*.  I thought, in game, that only infantry weapons designed for use from inside buildings due to some form of countermass system or similar could be launched from inside buildings. So AT-4/M-136 would not be allowed, but AT4CS would be (but with a slight range penalty). If this is the case, what decides whether a system or round is indoor launch capable and where, if anywhere, is this information displayed?

 

*Without equipping infantry with it, putting them in a structure and having a Red AFV (sans ammo) trundle into range.

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1 hour ago, ChrisWerb said:

Hi.  I just had a Scimitar taken out by a PG-7L round fired from inside a house*.  I thought, in game, that only infantry weapons designed for use from inside buildings due to some form of countermass system or similar could be launched from inside buildings. So AT-4/M-136 would not be allowed, but AT4CS would be (but with a slight range penalty). If this is the case, what decides whether a system or round is indoor launch capable and where, if anywhere, is this information displayed?

 

*Without equipping infantry with it, putting them in a structure and having a Red AFV (sans ammo) trundle into range.

First of all, all RPGs are  more or less safe(but not pleasant) to fire from inside of the buildings in real life. What really matters is a volume  of room, and presence of sufficient  opening  behind shooter to vent overpressure; those factors can severely reduce possible arc of fire. Use of countermass  or confining all gases in the barrel dramatically reduces those restrictions.

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2 minutes ago, Jartsev said:

First of all, all RPGs are  more or less safe(but not pleasant) to fire from inside of the buildings in real life. What really matters is a volume  of room, and presence of sufficient  opening  behind shooter to vent overpressure; use of countermass  or confining all gases in the barrel dramatically reduces those requirements.

You know for weapons that eject a countermass (like Carl-Gustav, (le)PzFst etc); you would need a rather big room to fire them safely...so unless you open fire out of a cathedral, you should not do it 😉

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2 hours ago, Grenny said:

You know for weapons that eject a countermass (like Carl-Gustav, (le)PzFst etc); you would need a rather big room to fire them safely...so unless you open fire out of a cathedral, you should not do it 😉

 

There are weapons using this principle that are advertised for confined space use, the Matador comes to mind as an example. The confined space capability is claimed in this manufacturer video.  Others include the AT4CS series and at least one special round for the Carl Gustaf M1-4 series 84mm RRs - the HEAT 655 CS 

 

Ssnake, it wasn't much of a scenario. I wanted to test the Scimitar, so I used the Hanover (non bumpy) map and had the Scimitar intercept the BMP-1s in a small town. I managed to kill all three, but one infantryman escaped and made it into a house. He turned out to be an RPG gunner :)

Edited by ChrisWerb

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Nevertheless, if you can create a "minimal repeat case" that has just the RPG gunner and a target in range that demonstrates the issue, that makes a. a wonderful test case, and b. guarantees that we're all looking at the same thing. You know at least one case where this exactly happened. It might be dependent on a certain building or other conditions, things that might take us a good while to find out, and you're in a unique position to spare us all that needless effort.

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I managed to replicate the behaviour many times. Scenario and AAR files sent to your email.

 

Subsequently I gave the infantry, RPG-22, RPG-29, RPG-7/PG-7N, Carl Gustav CG M2/FV551C, AT-4, AT-4CS and Pzf-3 (baseline) and all were fired from inside ground floor or 1st floor rooms of houses.

Edited by ChrisWerb

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This thing has peaked my curiosity.  As I have seen similar things happening in past.  Would you upload that Scenario and AAR here for public so I and perhaps some others if they're interested, could take curious look at them.  

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Hi. I have emailed the original version with just PG-7L to Nils. I don't know how to upload, so perhaps he would be so kind as to do so?

 

Edited by ChrisWerb

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I'm not trying to be awkward. What I'd like to see, by default, is that only weapons or ammunition natures that are advertised as being able to be fired from confined spaces (some of which are already represented in SB) can be fired from inside rooms/bunkers (possible exception cathedrals :) ). Better still would be a check box to allow firing of other natures from inside buildings, Isis-style, with an attendant danger to the firer and anyone close to them. Another check box for "AT gunner to go outside to fire" would be great too. A man can dream...

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Just FYI, we have a flag in the ammo statistics whether an RPG can be fired from confined spaces, but the bug seems to be that it's currently being ignored. This may be a regression error from some code refactoring.

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Regarding RPGs firing from buildings:

 

The issue has to do with the fact that we only restrict certain ATGMs from firing from buildings.  Why? Because positions of the RPG gunner in buildings are not necessarily always in a "small room" (think of the warehouse, factories, etc), nor are some of the positions actually in rooms at all (many are on the roof). Also, IRL, it is possible to modify your firing position in some way to vent the blast as well (like breaking holes in walls), which obviously cannot be represented in SB.

 

But in game terms, then there is the issue that the user doesn't easily know which RPGs can be fired from a small room in a building (as the original question implies) and which cannot, so you end up with a very annoying situation where troops possibly could fire (literally) any RPG from their location (because they are on the roof or in a large room), but cannot, or in a situation where the user thinks that they could fire the RPG from the building but it won't, or in a situation where you script the AI to occupy buildings but they are helpless because they cannot use their RPGs.

 

So, an abstraction was made to allow all RPGs to be used from buildings, as an abstraction of all the intangibles that we cannot represent. Also, the desire is to give the nod to infantry to give them the benefit of the doubt that they would fire out a way to utilize the RPG from any building they would be located in.  ATGMs are a bit different, being much more effective, so they are more restricted.

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Oh, I noticed the original question was to figure out if there is a way to determine if an RPG (already covered) or ATGM can be fired from a building or not, and this turned into a discussion about RPGs being fired from buildings.

 

The RPGs are already mentioned in previous post, but in the case of the ATGM (who are actually restricted), no, there is no way to tell which one can fire from a building at this time, but the list is very short...

 

AT-4C

Javelin

Spike

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