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stormrider_sp

Medina Ridge

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I have being breaking my head to figure this out:

 

Unless I'm mistaken, an Iraqi Tank Regiment, being about the size of a US armor battalion, is composed of 4 tank companies, each with 3 tank platoons. I guess it follows somewhat the structure of a British Tank Regiment, specially given the fact that senior republican guard leadership studied tank warfare in the UK.

 

So, where did all these BMPs populating the 2-70 zone come from?

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Ummm... the map reads "Iraqi Republican Guard Corps", which is two levels of hierarchy up. These would be BMP regiments from the same and one or two sister divisions...?

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49 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Ummm... the map reads "Iraqi Republican Guard Corps", which is two levels of hierarchy up. These would be BMP regiments from the same and one or two sister divisions...?

Maybe from sister divisions, assigning remnants from other formations like 46th, although regular army divisions normally didnt have BMPs. Before the Battle of 73 Easting, the sighting of a BMP by a recon helicopter was the evidence of the presence of a Republican Guard Division nearby.

 

The other sister division involved in this sector was the Adnan Motorized Rifle, which was obliterated by US MLRS and artillery while forward passing to screen the Medina Armored Division (2d, 14th and 10th Brigades), but just as well its very unlikely that they had any BMPs. Its known that they had a Tank Battalion and a bunch of truck mounted infantry battalions. The only formation that had BMPs was that Mechanized Battalion covering the northern flank of the 2d Bde of the Medina Division. Unless they shared a few companies to its sister battalions (at least half a battalion), then where did they come from?

 

Edited by stormrider_sp

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i have a few pictures of bmp-1s with non RG insignia, nor was it apparently always was the case that all t-72s were assigned to Republican guards, although more likely the case the RG received the best serviced and maintained equipment

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10 hours ago, Captain_Colossus said:

i have a few pictures of bmp-1s with non RG insignia, nor was it apparently always was the case that all t-72s were assigned to Republican guards, although more likely the case the RG received the best serviced and maintained equipment

Yes, some of the better equipped regular army units also had them. I assume that the markings you have are from the Saladin Armored Division (6th Armd Bde, 8th Mech Bde and 12th Armd Bde), which was believed to be the best division of all the regular army units. But they were decisively engaged in completely different sectors of this theater of war. They were deep into Kuwait. The one other culprit is the 10th Armored Division, operating in northwestern Kuwait, which was hastily sent to link and cover the gap between the Tawakalna Mech Div and the Medina Armored Div. Perhaps the other option is that each Tank Battalion also had at least 1 Mech company, but little information is known (according to Zaloga) regarding the structure of Iraqi Tank Battalions.

 

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I find it had to believe that an armor division should have no mechanized infantry battalions. Usually the regimental level is the highest echelon that is still "pure", anything above that (BDE, DIV, Corps) is pretty much guaranteed to combine different types of combat units, their combat support forces, and logistical elements.

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13 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I find it had to believe that an armor division should have no mechanized infantry battalions. Usually the regimental level is the highest echelon that is still "pure", anything above that (BDE, DIV, Corps) is pretty much guaranteed to combine different types of combat units, their combat support forces, and logistical elements.

The composition of the RGFC divisions followed traditional guidelines:

 

Armored Divisions had 2 Armored Brigades + 1 Mech Brigade. Mechanized Divisions had the inverse: 2 Mech Bdes + 1 Armored Bde.

Armored Bdes had 3 Armored Bns and 1 Mech Bn. Mechanized Brigades had 3 Mechanized Bns + 1 Armor Bn.

Battalions had 4 companies of unknown composition.

 

In the case of the Medina Armored Division the composition was:

2d Armor Bde = North

14th Mech Bde = South

10th Armor Bde = Reserve

 

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iraqi bmp's armed with atgms tended to be quite rare- apparently the iraqis preferred to use their missiles from the dismount rather than from their vehicles, it simply is quite rare to find examples where you will see the vehicles equipped with missiles.

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3 hours ago, Captain_Colossus said:

iraqi bmp's armed with atgms tended to be quite rare- apparently the iraqis preferred to use their missiles from the dismount rather than from their vehicles, it simply is quite rare to find examples where you will see the vehicles equipped with missiles.

Maybe they fired the whole lot against the iranians, or they just let them expire like we do in Brasil: Live fire training has only one reason... 😂

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During Medina Ridge, 1st Armored Division (US) assaulted with 2 brigades in line and 1 as reserve. Each brigade brigade assaulted with its battalions organized in task forces, each with 3 tank companies forward and in line and 1 bradley company in reserve.

What if they were up against a better protected foe who could absorb more hits? There were shit loads of targets on that reverse slope, eventually they would run out of ready ammo. And they had no tanks as direct reserves. What would they do? Would they be able to pass the reserve brigade in time?

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iraqi artillery never gets involved in any serious way, always too little too late and inaccurate in all battles. as everyone knows, Iraqi war plans are conceived around the first persian gulf war with iran- which could conceivably make a mess of american forces; may have saved their bacon in select battles if they could have pulled it off, but the Iraqis sealed their fate as soon as they invaded kuwait in the first place unless in my opinion two other  interesting scenarios occur: 1) iraq invaded and occupied saudi arabia immediately instead of digging in,  therefore knocking out an important arab ally and base to liberate kuwait, or 2) iraq withdrew from kuwait with war booty and loot before the coalition deadline, returns to Iraq with its forces intact and saddam hussein declares a baathist victory (which would have been a headache for the coalition and not necessarily a more preferred outcome)

Edited by Captain_Colossus

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Thermal sights and GPS navigation turned out to be absolute force multipliers. Plus, extensive live training at the NTC.

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39 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Thermal sights and GPS navigation turned out to be absolute force multipliers. Plus, extensive live training at the NTC.

I agree. By NTC I must add: maneuver.

 

What I'm exploring is having on the other side, a competent foe with thermal sights and real ammo, although limited by the same constrains of that conflict, like complete US air supremacy. Instead of T-72s; T-90s without laser warning receivers and armed with BM46s.

 

 

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if you look at the skirmish at phase line bullet, american forces with hi tech equipment  where just as confused as Iraqis in other battles, what happened is unexpected contact in poor visibility nullified superior american range, tactics and sensors. the problem however is that the Iraqis could never capitalize on anything because they could never put together a maneuver scheme beyond local units counter attacking- no unit is going to be in contact with a headquarters above a brigade level at best, so most units are blind, have no idea of the disposition of the bigger picture: other friendly forces and the enemy generally. too much going against the Iraqis even with first rate equipment since the opening night with the punishing of iraq's command and control. the casualties would have been higher certainly for the coalition, and maybe the Iraqis win a major battle or two, but it's speculation that you can experiment for yourself with steel beasts- that's what it's for, you have tools already to play with

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3 hours ago, Captain_Colossus said:

but it's speculation that you can experiment for yourself with steel beasts- that's what it's for, you have tools already to play with

So, focus on the topic:

 

On 10/24/2019 at 9:57 AM, stormrider_sp said:

During Medina Ridge, 1st Armored Division (US) assaulted with 2 brigades in line and 1 as reserve. Each brigade brigade assaulted with its battalions organized in task forces, each with 3 tank companies forward and in line and 1 bradley company in reserve.

What if they were up against a better protected foe who could absorb more hits? There were shit loads of targets on that reverse slope, eventually they would run out of ready ammo. And they had no tanks as direct reserves. What would they do? Would they be able to pass the reserve brigade in time?

 

This is the situation: I'm using the same basic disposition of US forces but against T-90s instead of T-72Ms and although US forces are still superior, they're running out of ammo before they're through. Should I call of the attack? Can reserves manage to reach the front in time? What would the 2nd Brigade, 1st Armored Division's commander have done in that situation. Notice here that it really doesn't matter that in 1991, Iraqi artillery was shit, or that their fate was sealed as soon as they invaded Kuwait, or that Saddam retreated back into Iraq with the booty and played winner. I'm looking for tactics for a specific situation described above.

 

Think of it like this:

Iraq invaded Kuwait, Coalition gained air supremacy during 199x Desert Shield, Coalition invaded the exact same way they did in 1991. The only difference is that now, past Phase Line Tangerine they're facing Republican Guards divisions armed with the cream of the cream of what they could had bought with all their petrodollars during sometime in the 90s like soviet tanks even those still in development equipped with, for example, french made thermal sights, fire control systems and technology.

Edited by stormrider_sp

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well, I presume you are playing against yourself, which is difficult- you know what plans of each side are, so it may be better to play against a human opponent to see what happens. we do know however the RG does not employ any special tactics, they are trained in the same soviet doctrine as regular army units. moreover, the RG aren't especially experienced in maneuver warfare, since prior to operation desert storm they were generally a smaller praetorian guard during iran-Iraq war, membership was expanded too late to really gain much combat experience. what they did show however much differently during ODS than other units, particularly the surrenduring conscripts on the saddam line was courage, if still ineffectual. the units carrying the standard the RG fought and died in place aggressively, where they were tasked to do that. your t-90 equipped RG units could conceivably attempt to charge or outflank your m1 tanks, in which case under the scenario your m1 tanks might withdraw and fence off the attackers with artillery and air support  (this sort of thing did happen say in the wadi al-batin and the battle of khafji). 

Edited by Captain_Colossus

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stormrider, I can imagine a more plausible scenario. What if instead of the tank bureaus fight the T-64 whould had been the substitute of the T-62 as it was intended? Then, T-72 whould have never existed and the iraquis´d have the T-64 instead or maybe the T-80. A 1991 T-64B could be an interesting enemy for your scenario, in my opinion.

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8 hours ago, marques said:

stormrider, I can imagine a more plausible scenario. What if instead of the tank bureaus fight the T-64 whould had been the substitute of the T-62 as it was intended? Then, T-72 whould have never existed and the iraquis´d have the T-64 instead or maybe the T-80. A 1991 T-64B could be an interesting enemy for your scenario, in my opinion.

I tried different options, including the T-64. It's still just too easy. The scenario although "fictional", is still heavily based on 1991 Medina Ridge and that includes weather, time, location and situation. Weather plays the biggest role with high winds, rain and low visibility (<1500m) making it not only important but vital to fight on thermals. A de-tuned T-90 emulates a tuned up export T-72Bx with french made thermal sights but with the capability of shooting long rods. On the other hand I don't have many options for a thermal sighted AND Atgm capable IFV. I'm current using the new Kurganets-25, de-tuned, to emulate sort of a BMP-3 also equipped with french thermal sights, although I find its missiles are a bit overpowered for the era.

 

And Im also very intrigued by the T-90.

Edited by stormrider_sp

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