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Assassin 7

AT-5b Spandrel/Konkurs missile Team surviving Main Gun round [INVALID]

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While playing a mission tonight, I had a hard time killing a AT-5b missile team with coax. so I decided to shoot a sabot at the missile launcher which did not kill the shooter. I think there was a posts before about having a difficult time killing the infantry but not sure what the status is.

SS_21_08_20.jpg

SS_21_09_14.jpg

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As was demonstrated with the tank commander's ear that was nicked by a sabot fin, we don't simulate the atmospheric supersonic overpressure wave. Our projectiles are points flying through the virtual space, a necessary simplification to conserve precious CPU cycles. If that sabot point object struck a location for which no damage was assigned - and we are somewhat limited in the kind of damages that we can assign to crew served weapons in the first place - well, then nothing will happen.

 

I'm not losing sleep over this. You aren't supposed to shoot trucks or infantry with Sabots in the first place because they are not very effective. Here we are: No effect.

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6 hours ago, Ssnake said:

As was demonstrated with the tank commander's ear that was nicked by a sabot fin, we don't simulate the atmospheric supersonic overpressure wave. Our projectiles are points flying through the virtual space, a necessary simplification to conserve precious CPU cycles. If that sabot point object struck a location for which no damage was assigned - and we are somewhat limited in the kind of damages that we can assign to crew served weapons in the first place - well, then nothing will happen.

 

I'm not losing sleep over this. You aren't supposed to shoot trucks or infantry with Sabots in the first place because they are not very effective. Here we are: No effect.

Interesting, but ok I guess I can see the training part of this. IRL if a ATGM team was to fire at my tank they would receive as many HEAT or MPAT rounds needed to make sure there is nothing left of them. I’m sure I could write a statement of why I used my Main Gun on a ATGM troop target instead of a commander having to send a letter in the mail to my family. I’m just saying as I have seen many tanker put Heat into small buildings that had arm enemy troops in it.

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OH COME ON!!! If you have a sabot loaded...of course your gonna shoot!!! That's a direct shot to the head!!! And YOUR damage model disregards it.That guy is dead dead dead.

Edited by Raven434th

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By now you guys should know that you need to post as detailed information as you can, as well as an aar if you think you found a bug.  It is pretty well known (I thought), that in multiplayer sessions the hit rays in aar's are often not super accurate, because the information is being sent back and forth over a network .  And yet you give no indication if this image is from a single, or multiplayer scenario...from the host, or a client.  This stuff is pretty important..   And I get it, not everyone has time as a software tester, but Assassin "OH COME ON!!!"  you should understand how this works by now. 

 

Besides inaccurate network related aar events, there is also the issue of what is, and isn't stored in the aar.  Not every exact position, of everything is stored.   In this case I'm not sure if the position of the gun crew, in relation the the weapon is stored "exactly".  These guys move around, as you rotated these weapons.   And of course, there is a reason why not everything is stored(we would if we could), to keep AAR's from being a thousand terabytes.  

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, RogueSnake79 said:

By now you guys should know that you need to post as detailed information as you can, as well as an aar if you think you found a bug.  It is pretty well known (I thought), that in multiplayer sessions the hit rays in aar's are often not super accurate, because the information is being sent back and forth over a network .  And yet you give no indication if this image is from a single, or multiplayer scenario...from the host, or a client.  This stuff is pretty important..   And I get it, not everyone has time as a software tester, but Assassin "OH COME ON!!!"  you should understand how this works by now. 

 

Besides inaccurate network related aar events, there is also the issue of what is, and isn't stored in the aar.  Not every exact position, of everything is stored.   In this case I'm not sure if the position of the gun crew, in relation the the weapon is stored "exactly".  These guys move around, as you rotated these weapons.   And of course, there is a reason why not everything is stored(we would if we could), to keep AAR's from being a thousand terabytes.  

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, I was in single player. I do not have the AAR but im sure I can get one similar. I will do more testing on this incident and see if I get similar results. I will post here the results.

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1 hour ago, Raven434th said:

OH COME ON!!! If you have a sabot loaded...of course your gonna shoot!!! That's a direct shot to the head!!! And YOUR damage model disregards it.That guy is dead dead dead.

Relax, guy.

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I honestly don't know what to say.

If you choose not to read and try to understand what I'm writing in rather plain and direct text, that is your choice, but not my failure.

 

I made clear that "more than nothing" would happen in real life. If you want to harp on that point, enjoy your strawman, but I'm notgoing to participate in such a phantom debate. We're modelling reality. Every model has its limitations and abstractions. This is one of them. Where we can, we try to err on the side that's supporting/reinforcing doctrine - in this case, that APFSDS rounds aren't the best choice against infantry.

The vector line of the shot missed the soldier, so nothing happened. End of story.

 

This isn't a bug. It's not a case of an insufficiently documented suspected bug. It's an (undisputed) model limitation.

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I'm going by the screenshot...it looks like it hit him squarely in the forehead (after hitting the scope thingy)...if the screenshot is lying so be it.

What got hit here??

Edited by Raven434th

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The impact beam has a radius, for better visibility; the projectile's trajectory vector has but a single dimension, direction (and implicitly by frame time, length).

The AAR is but a visual representation of a model, it's not the model itself.

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2 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

The impact beam has a radius, for better visibility; the projectile's trajectory vector has but a single dimension, direction (and implicitly by frame time, length).

The AAR is but a visual representation of a model, it's not the model itself.

so the screenshot didn't happen, it was a false report from the AAR? So the AAR's are not accurate? I believe this cause I did save this AAR and when I opened it today i am seeing the shot offset and not matter how i view the shot it is not the same as yesterday after the mission when reviewing the AAR.  

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i posted a similar situation in a previous thread below-

 

i understand what it meant by the visual representation of the model versus the number crunching going on under the hood, but what is confusing is that the event dialogue box in these screenshots record a hit and explains what happened, so that it appears that the program thinks there is a hit and is explicitly indicating that there is a hit (in my example, it says the unit was hit, but is ok), and not just showing a graphic which doesn't fully represent the the model.

 

don't go around shooting infantry as a legitimate procedure per se, i think in this particular case I just fired to clear the tube to load up a HEAT round, just happened to 'hit', if that is what is going on. 

 

i won't lose sleep over it and it isn't really that big of a deal, but it is interesting because the program does think the units are being hit.

 

 

https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/12523-t-55am-armor-leak/#comments

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This second set of screenshots that you posted would WOULD NOT HAVE PROMPTED ME TO QUESTION THE DAMAGE MODEL. BUT I DO QUESTION THE VALIDITY OF YOUR AAR'S (esim,not you assassin)

Edited by Raven434th

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If some of you want to misread what I'm writing, there is nothing that I can do, and I'm not going to waste more time on this.

The AAR is reasonably accurate within limits. Impact vectors are visiualized as thin prisms, approximating the shape of cylinders, so you can see them better than a simple line of sub pixel width. That a cylinder as a 3D object is something different from a vector line with but a single dimension is basic geometry knowledge. If you don't know the difference it makes no sense to continue the debate until you do. Also, the AAR visualizes what's been recorded.

 

a. not everything gets recorded, to trim the AAR file size

b. in network sessions where packet loss occurs, not all data may reach the computer doing the recording

c. data are stored with a certain resolution -  like

  • 32 bit floating numbers, which are most precise for values near zero, and rather imprecise for large figures (due to the way how binary values are being stored)
  • the four-second time resolution
  • the "between frames" interpolation of pretty much every impact event (usually a hit is about to occur, or already has occurred before the current frame time-step was completed)
  • character animation key frames and the interpolation of poses between them

 

There is nothing that can be done about these things. That's what we mean when we say that the AAR is not 100% correct 100% of the time. Within these limitations, it is absolutely correct all of the time. But as engineers we feel compelled to point out that there are fundamental limitations, so people don't take our model for reality. Apparently that fact cannot be stressed enough.

 

Now, WRT to crew served weapons, we can assign only a limited number of damages that can occur to the weapon itself. Only such defined damages may happen in the first place, and only to the weapon itself. In reality the scope might disintegrate into a gazillion of tiny fragments blowing into the operator's face at a thousand meters per second, probably killing him that way or disfiguring his face for life. The KE dart's overpressure wave would probably kill him. But we don't simulate those effects because Steel Beasts is a real-time application. We can only devote so many CPU cycles per frame.

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4 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

If some of you want to misread what I'm writing, there is nothing that I can do, and I'm not going to waste more time on this.

The AAR is reasonably accurate within limits. Impact vectors are visiualized as thin prisms, approximating the shape of cylinders, so you can see them better than a simple line of sub pixel width. That a cylinder as a 3D object is something different from a vector line with but a single dimension is basic geometry knowledge. If you don't know the difference it makes no sense to continue the debate until you do. Also, the AAR visualizes what's been recorded.

 

a. not everything gets recorded, to trim the AAR file size

b. in network sessions where packet loss occurs, not all data may reach the computer doing the recording

c. data are stored with a certain resolution -  like

 

  • 32 bit floating numbers, which are most precise for values near zero, and rather imprecise for large figures (due to the way how binary values are being stored)
  • the four-second time resolution
  • the "between frames" interpolation of pretty much every impact event (usually a hit is about to occur, or already has occurred before the current frame time-step was completed)
  • character animation key frames and the interpolation of poses between them

 

 

There is nothing that can be done about these things. That's what we mean when we say that the AAR is not 100% correct 100% of the time. Within these limitations, it is absolutely correct all of the time. But as engineers we feel compelled to point out that there are fundamental limitations, so people don't take our model for reality. Apparently that fact cannot be stressed enough.

 

Now, WRT to crew served weapons, we can assign only a limited number of damages that can occur to the weapon itself. Only such defined damages may happen in the first place, and only to the weapon itself. In reality the scope might disintegrate into a gazillion of tiny fragments blowing into the operator's face at a thousand meters per second, probably killing him that way or disfiguring his face for life. The KE dart's overpressure wave would probably kill him. But we don't simulate those effects because Steel Beasts is a real-time application. We can only devote so many CPU cycles per frame.

Ok understood. Thanks for the explanation 

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