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Nike-Ajax

Using M900 APFSDS for the M60 ?

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A quick but important question:

 

I am updating a scenario, but have run into a important snag.

 

Or more of a recurring issue actually:

 

When using the M60, I have outfitted it with the (on paper) best ammo. So specifically the M900 APFSDS...

 

BUT ..

 

The M60 keeps missing with that ammo, which is to say that its off by a considerable margin when engaging. As I am firing from a stationary position, have chosen the right ammo and are taking my time with the shots, then its no not my poor gunnery skills that is the issue.

And I have experienced this before.

 

SO.. Which ammo works with the M60 ?

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If I am not mistaken, the M900 was not intended to be given to the M60, so that might be an error on our part. All other ammo should be 'on target' provided that you index the proper round type (like on the M1 and M1A1).

 

 

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The M900 is type qualified (only) for the M68A1 gun (due to higher chamber pressure), which is mounted in the Stryker MGS, the M60A3, and the M1 models with 105mm gun (Jane's Ammunition Handbook 2009, 2011 (pg 379)). So, in principle, this round should be available. Why it misses, I don't know. I guess I'll have to run a few tests.

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I run a couple dozen shots at ranges 2,500...3,000m, and pretty much all of them were first round hits (except for the cases where I misjudged the range). At first glance the M900 seems to perform just fine.

 

Do you shoot? Or do you let the computer crew shoot?

 

At what ranges to you shoot?

If you do it personally, do you shoot from the thermal sight, or from the auxiliary sight?

How do you establish the range; in the M60 only the commander has the range readout.

 

Can you rule out crosswind as a factor?

Is your vehicle in a level position, or at a cant angle?

 

Do you hit with HEAT rounds from the same tank?

 

Do you have the same type of miss all the time (rounds going over/falling short/left/right)?

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I have seem something similar before, I think right before 4.1 patch, but in a M1A1HA. Sometimes, for no reason, once every many many loads while testing scenarios, my tank would miss all the shots as if there was something wrong with the ammo index. After reloadind the test scenario, problem would disappear.

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I’m seeing this also on different tanks. Seems to happen randomly. I’m first noticed this on the Tank Range back when I was trying to beat speedy Colebrook’s engagement time. Would be tracking a target almost perfectly and the round is a complete miss by at least half a target form. It does not happened in 4.023 as I have reinstalled it again on another computer and shot the range many times. 

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I know it has to do with lead, when I beat Colebrook’s time I did not use lead at all. Just Kentucky windage. I was shooting with a Leopard 2A5 when I noticed the shots missing so it wasn’t round indexing on my behalf. Just when I was applying lead. After test with the Abrams I noticed the same thing seems to happen shortly after a round change. Doesn’t happened when just firing sabot or heat but does more often anywhere from 2 to 8 rounds after switching rounds. Still was in the middle of testing this. Trying to get more details to report it

Edited by Assassin 7

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Thanks for all the good answers and you guys taking the time to answer.

Let me see if I can sorta-kinda address some of the many good points you make:

 

4 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I run a couple dozen shots at ranges 2,500...3,000m, and pretty much all of them were first round hits (except for the cases where I misjudged the range). At first glance the M900 seems to perform just fine.

 

Do you shoot? Or do you let the computer crew shoot?

 

At what ranges to you shoot?

If you do it personally, do you shoot from the thermal sight, or from the auxiliary sight?

How do you establish the range; in the M60 only the commander has the range readout.

 

Can you rule out crosswind as a factor?

Is your vehicle in a level position, or at a cant angle?

 

Do you hit with HEAT rounds from the same tank?

 

Do you have the same type of miss all the time (rounds going over/falling short/left/right)?

 

1) It was me shooting

2) Unknown specifically, but I have experienced it at different ranges

3) I shoot from thermal sight at max magnification

4) ... a good question ... I thought I lased but apparently not ... BUT the range is ok. Its off to one or the other sides. Mostly left for some reason.

5) no I can not. But I have seen it in different MP scenarios as well as in my test scenarios.

6) Um ... both ?

7) Yes I could hit with a HEAT

8) not sure - per 5

 

2 hours ago, stormrider_sp said:

I have seem something similar before, I think right before 4.1 patch, but in a M1A1HA. Sometimes, for no reason, once every many many loads while testing scenarios, my tank would miss all the shots as if there was something wrong with the ammo index. After reloadind the test scenario, problem would disappear.

 

This is all after the most recent update, and the ammo was correctly indexed

 

2 hours ago, Assassin 7 said:

I’m seeing this also on different tanks. Seems to happen randomly. I’m first noticed this on the Tank Range back when I was trying to beat speedy Colebrook’s engagement time. Would be tracking a target almost perfectly and the round is a complete miss by at least half a target form. It does not happened in 4.023 as I have reinstalled it again on another computer and shot the range many times. 

 

This is with the newest update.

 

2 hours ago, Assassin 7 said:

I know it has to do with lead, when I beat Colebrook’s time I did not use lead at all. Just Kentucky windage. I was shooting with a Leopard 2A5 when I noticed the shots missing so it wasn’t round indexing on my behalf. Just when I was applying lead. After test with the Abrams I noticed the same thing seems to happen shortly after a round change. Doesn’t happened when just firing sabot or heat but does more often anywhere from 2 to 8 rounds after switching rounds. Still was in the middle of testing this. Trying to get more details to report it

 

I have experienced it both with lead. But also - and this is what I tested in both a "normal" and my test scenario, from a stationary firing position on a stationary target.

And its a recurring issue for me - but only seems to happen with the M900 round.

 

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More moot(or not so moot) questions:

-Are you using gunner's or TC's positions?

-Since  you are experiencing issue while in the test mode of the Mission Editor,  was scenario re-saved between  test runs?

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33 minutes ago, Nike-Ajax said:

Thanks for all the good answers and you guys taking the time to answer.

Let me see if I can sorta-kinda address some of the many good points you make:

 

 

1) It was me shooting

2) Unknown specifically, but I have experienced it at different ranges

3) I shoot from thermal sight at max magnification

4) ... a good question ... I thought I lased but apparently not ... BUT the range is ok. Its off to one or the other sides. Mostly left for some reason.

5) no I can not. But I have seen it in different MP scenarios as well as in my test scenarios.

6) Um ... both ?

7) Yes I could hit with a HEAT

😎 not sure - per 5

 

 

This is all after the most recent update, and the ammo was correctly indexed

 

 

This is with the newest update.

 

 

I have experienced it both with lead. But also - and this is what I tested in both a "normal" and my test scenario, from a stationary firing position on a stationary target.

And its a recurring issue for me - but only seems to happen with the M900 round.

 

Ok thanks for the response, so it seems that what I am seeing is something completely different. I will report my case as soon as I have a little more to provide in detail. Sry for the thread highjack then. 

Edited by Assassin 7

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5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I run a couple dozen shots at ranges 2,500...3,000m, and pretty much all of them were first round hits (except for the cases where I misjudged the range). At first glance the M900 seems to perform just fine.

 

Do you shoot? Or do you let the computer crew shoot?

 

At what ranges to you shoot?

If you do it personally, do you shoot from the thermal sight, or from the auxiliary sight?

How do you establish the range; in the M60 only the commander has the range readout.

 

Can you rule out crosswind as a factor?

Is your vehicle in a level position, or at a cant angle?

 

Do you hit with HEAT rounds from the same tank?

 

Do you have the same type of miss all the time (rounds going over/falling short/left/right)?

1- Both

2- Within range

3- Both tis and vis

4- lrf

5- no wind

6- stopped

7- sabot afair

8- dunno, only happened a couple of times.

9- gunner pos

10- its obligatory to save scen before testing.

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One other possibility, if you are going from near to far, or far to near -- you cannot do "lase and blaze" on the M60, because the gun elevation is so slow. What I mean is, you cannot lase and immediately fire, there must be a short pause between as the gun drives up/down. 

 

Not saying that is what it is here, but just a possibility to consider...  🤔

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Then again, if rounds are going left and right rather than over, or falling short, range/superelevation errors are rather unlikely as the root of the problems.

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Always long with fin sounds like a possible indexing issue. Confirm that you are not firing Fin with HESH or HEAT data selected on the panel.

 

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I can't replicate this.

Tried all kinds of settings.

 

Single player, Network session. Moving and stationary targets, moving/stationary shooter...up and down angle shots, using lasing rules for first and last echo  etc etc

I was able to hit just fine with the M900.

 

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3 minutes ago, hoggydog said:

Could this be related to the Cant corrector?

Well, I'll try cant shots next....

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1 minute ago, TSe419E said:

Yes, the gunner should be lasing.

 

What is it about the first video?

The M60 was shooting over even though i was lasing at the targets

 

I dont think its the M900 round. Just tested it with the M1IP

 

 

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Does the M1 has something similar to the Leopards "Rücksteuerung" (adjust for own vehicle speed)...I missed a few times shooting HEAT while moving due to perceived lack of "Verschleppungsausgleich" (sorry no Idea how to say that in english)

 

As for the M900 or other sabot round...150 round fired. Did like shown in the video...standing target rougly 2000 away. Moving at 90° or smaller angle to the target. Failed to see the described problem.

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42 minutes ago, Grenny said:

Does the M1 has something similar to the Leopards "Rücksteuerung" (adjust for own vehicle speed)...I missed a few times shooting HEAT while moving due to perceived lack of "Verschleppungsausgleich" (sorry no Idea how to say that in english)

 

As for the M900 or other sabot round...150 round fired. Did like shown in the video...standing target rougly 2000 away. Moving at 90° or smaller angle to the target. Failed to see the described problem.

Before a Lase then No but after a Lase then yes it does by taking readings from the feedback offsets of the SAHA, The handle movements, The GTD Azimuth subsystem and LOS system.  But would not be able to determine speed if you are shooting with the gun front which gunnery techniques come into play such as lase, track, lase, fire. 
 

The SEP is completely different though as it does monitor vehicle speed and Turret positioning along with pitch angles and tilt.

Edited by Assassin 7

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