War over Water 1965 and SB Pro PE

[DemolitionMan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_over_Water_(Jordan_river)

 

Would it technically be possible to recreate the 10+km Israeli tank gunner hits with SB Pro PE? Ever since I read about those incidents I was kinda fascinated to visualize them somehow.

[TankHunter]

The rounds don't despawn, they stop only when they impact something (a vehicle or terrain). So in that sense it is feasible. That said, how to actually manage enough accuracy for the super elevation needed to do such gunnery in a Shot Kal is entirely beyond me.

[Gibsonm]

You are basically now firing semi indirect.

 

You'll need to commander to observe and adjust fire (using their map, binos, range card, etc.) while the gunner applies those corrections to the quadrant fire control, using range scales, etc.

 

HESH will still be effective, regardless of range. Your challenge is accurate adjustments (bracketing, etc.) to get rounds on target.

 

I guess you could re-create it but its probably going to be a "multi player" scenario with 2 people being in the turret.

 

Edited November 29, 2019 by Gibsonm

[Ssnake]

I think with the new engine this is actually easier to replicate than one may think.

First you need a map of the upper Jordan valley.

Then do what the Isralis did - build a ramp with the proper gradient to add more superelevation to what the Centurion can do.

Then have at least two players, possibly three - two observers, one gunner.

Add variable crosswind conditions to make things more interesting.

Practice.

 

The difficult thing will be to calculate the necessary superelevations for these ranges. I might be able to help with that, but I need to know the specifics.

• Which round do you want to use
• range difference
• height difference

[Colebrook]

I always thought the longest tank hit was a challenger hitting at 4700m.

I did a test few years ago shooting targets at extreme range and I was able to hit things at 8km max, but with a M1A2.

[DemolitionMan]

The most detailed account I found in "Tanks of Tammuz" by Shabtai Teveth. I don't remember the longest kill range and if it was a tank or a dozer. But they did hit AFVs during the engagements protecting the earth-moving vehicles. My copy is stored away at the moment, probably someone else here has it at hand. I liked that it was a lot of lessons learned and their first try was a complete failure.

Edited November 30, 2019 by DemolitionMan

[MikeKiloPapa]

4 hours ago, Colebrook said:

I always thought the longest tank hit was a challenger hitting at 4700m.

Not trying to belittle the British achievement, but hitting a stationary target from a stationary tank at that distance isn't THAT big of a feat with modern fire control systems.

 

We used to have an annual long range tank shoot, as part of the qualification for new gunners., where they had to hit one target at 4300m with HEAT (DM12A1) and another at 4700m with sabot(DM53A1) ........back then the FCS was still limited to 4000m so they had to manually input range and then use the Emergency Fire  "button" to actually fire the gun, despite this most crews seemed to have little issue reliably achieving first round hits .

 

The FCS was later upgraded to allow fire solutions out to 5000 meters making those "long range" engagements a simple lase and shoot process, and with the coming LEO 2A7DK, with its more accurate gun and vastly superior optics, it will present even less of a challenge.

[Hedgehog]

On 11/30/2019 at 9:08 AM, MikeKiloPapa said:

Not trying to belittle the British achievement, but hitting a stationary target from a stationary tank at that distance isn't THAT big of a feat with modern fire control systems.

 

We used to have an annual long range tank shoot, as part of the qualification for new gunners., where they had to hit one target at 4300m with HEAT (DM12A1) and another at 4700m with sabot(DM53A1) ........back then the FCS was still limited to 4000m so they had to manually input range and then use the Emergency Fire  "button" to actually fire the gun, despite this most crews seemed to have little issue reliably achieving first round hits .

 

The FCS was later upgraded to allow fire solutions out to 5000 meters making those "long range" engagements a simple lase and shoot process, and with the coming LEO 2A7DK, with its more accurate gun and vastly superior optics, it will present even less of a challenge.

You do know the engagement in question was in 1966 / 67, right?

[Iarmor]

In the decade preceding the Six Day War, the Syrian border was Israel's hottest, with many skirmishes taking place along the Jordan River valley DMZ. The Jordan River's Headwater Diversion Project, planned by the Arab League, was only one of several disputes, but one with strategic implications. 

 

Since no later than 1957, the IDF Northern Command has been alerting tanks to the Jordan River valley to return fire during skirmishes with the Syrian army. In November 1964, as tensions were rising due to the commence of substantive diversion works, MBTs were pre-deployed along the Syrian border for the first time. The decision to do so was contributed by the fact that the former Armored Corps CG, David Elazar, had commenced his new duty as the Northern Command CG on November 1st 1964.

 

The tanks employed by the IDF Northern Command in the 1964-1965 skirmishes were Centurions (from the 82nd tank battalion) and M50 and M51 Shermans (from the 52nd tank battalion), whereas the AMX-13 had already been spared from these missions (but no earlier than 1962). M48A1s and M48A2Cs (from the 79th tank battalion, established in January 1965) were deployed along the Syrian border starting in January 1967.

The Syrians employed Panzer IVs, T-34/85s and SU-100s, while the T-54/55s were kept with the elite formations at the rear, eyeing Damascus.

 

In all skirmishes the Syrians had the height advantage, sometimes by hundreds of meters. They were positioned in hull-down trenches in heavily-fortified strongholds along the western slope of the Golan Plateau. In some cases they couldn't depress the gun low enough. The tank dual ranges were 700-4000 meters.

 

The first incident, on November 3rd 1964, was a complete failure for the IDF: a Centurion platoon fired 89 APDS rounds (105 mm) from Tell Dan on two Panzers at An-Nukheila, 800 meters away, and failed to hit. Following the failure, the Armor Corps CG Israel Tal held a thorough investigation, that lead to improved training and results. General Tal, as well as the brigade and battalion COs, even participated some of the skirmishes themselves as a tank crewmembers.

The two An-Nukheila Panzers were destroyed on November 13th by the same Centurion platoon. The Centurions were only held as backup for a platoon of good old M51 Shermans, but one Sherman malfunctioned and the Centurions quickly rushed in to rehabilitate their name.

 

 

There were three incidents during which IDF tanks destroyed heavy equipment used in the diversion project, taking place between March and August 1965. In the last two incidents, the Israeli tank fire was semi-indirect:

 

March 17th 1965: two tanks, Sherman (tank gunner: Armor Corps CG Israel Tal) and Centurion, fire from Tell Dan and destroy 8 bulldozers on the SW slope of Mount Hermon at 2000-2400 meters range.

 

May 13th 1965: M51 Sherman (tank gunner: Armor Corps CG Israel Tal) fires from a field near Kibbutz Kefar HaNassi, destroys 3 bulldozers near the Upper Custom House at 5800-6000 meters range. 

 

August 12th 1965: Centurion (105 mm) fires from the Korazim Plateau slope, near Almagor, destroys one bulldozer near Qubat Qar'a at 11 kms range. The Centurion engages the bulldozer after its platoon had accomplished the task of finishing-off 7 Syrian tanks at shorter ranges (including a moving T-34 at 3 kms), while the neighboring M51 Sherman platoon had failed to hit the bulldozers. Another Centurion was hit by a T-34 and its TC, the 82nd tank battalion CO, was badly injured but the gunner, general Tal, was unhurt.

 

 

The last Syrian diversion attempt was halted by IAF airstrikes on July 14th 1966. The June 1967 Six Day War gave the final blow to the project.

 

 

BTW, the heavy equipment for the diversion project was kindly contributed by Mohammad Bin Laden's construction company, as the owner was eager to participate the effort. One of his 56 children was Osama.

One night in Damascus, during a party, Mohammad Bin Laden had a friendly chat with someone named Kamal Amin Thabet, in which Bin Laden arrogantly disclosed important details about the project. He didn't know that Kamal Amin Thabet was the fake identity of Eli Cohen, a Mossad spy.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Iarmor

[Iarmor]

Indirect tank fire was used by the IDF also in several later incidents:

 

April 4th 1969: M48 semi-indirectly fires 90 mm HVAP rounds from the Pier Stronghold of the Bar-Lev Line, sinks the oil tanker Sadd Al-Furat near the Suez refineries, 5200 meters away.

That specific tank platoon, of the 46th tank battalion, was trained for indirect fire at 15-20 kms ranges, and its tanks (ex-Jordanian M48s, 1967 war booty) were modified accordingly. That platoon was raided and destroyed by Egyptian commandos near the Pier Stronghold on July 10th 1969, and one of its tankers was taken alive back to Egypt as a POW.

 

April 21st 1969: M48A3 semi-indirectly fires 105 mm rounds from near the Croatian Memorial Cemetery, destroys an Egyptian antenna beyond the Suez Canal. The antenna, located in a mango plantation behind a sand wall, was also used as an observation tower by an Egyptian (or Soviet?) FO.

After the incident, the Israeli TC (of the 184th tank battalion), who fired with no special preparations (didn't even know the range), was promoted on the spot to lead a platoon by the 14th armored brigade CO, despite not being an officer, and was decorated by the Chief of General Staff Bar-Lev.

 

1970, towards the end of the War of Attrition: T-54/55s (1967 war booty) indirectly fire 100 mm HE-FRAG rounds from the Pier Stronghold at Egyptian SAM sites beyond the Suez Canal.

T-54/55 crews trained for indirect fire at 15-20 kms ranges up until 1972, when the original main guns were replaced with 105 mm.

 

1973-1974, during and after the Yom Kippur War: Centurions semi-indirectly fire at Jordanian and Syrian AFVs near and on Tell Al-Hara, from positions around Umm Batna - Tell Maskhara. In one post-war incident, at least one BRDM-2 was destroyed.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Iarmor

[MikeKiloPapa]

On 12/5/2019 at 8:07 PM, Hedgehog said:

You do know the engagement in question was in 1966 / 67, right?

Yes i do......my reply was in response to this post :

Quote

I always thought the longest tank hit was a challenger hitting at 4700m.

 

[Hedgehog]

10 hours ago, MikeKiloPapa said:

Yes i do......my reply was in response to this post :

 

Ah, OK.

Just you started waffling on about Fire Control Systems, and I'm like: "What Fire Control Systems, it's a Sho't Kal."

Edited December 7, 2019 by Hedgehog