Vulnerability of APS systems in Steel Beasts

[ChrisWerb]

Hi

 

I have been messing about, trying to knock out the APS on a variety of vehicles, both in game and by testing. I'm wondering whether there is a bit of an anomaly.

 

I set up the following vehicles as targets at around 6-800 metres

 

T14 

T15

Leopard 2A6 w AVEPS

CV9035NS w AVEPS

GTK Boxer w AVEPS

M2A3 w AVEPS

 

I then liberally dosed them with the following. 

 

7.62 Coax

0.50 API-T

40mm M430 HE (not HEDP as I didn't want to knock out the vehicles)

(I also tried 20mm Rh202 20x139 HEI-T but that knocked out several of the vehicles and stopped turret motion on the Armata)

 

The only vehicle I appear to be able to damage the Radar on is the T-15 which mirrors my experience in game when I get "APS Radar 1" etc. under damage manning the vehicle first person. It may be that the same can happen for the T-14 but I could not make it happen in test.

 

For AVEPS, I could not inflict any damage at all. The only vehicle that appeared to display a graphical representational model of AVEPS was the Boxer which gave me an aim point. I put literally dozens of rounds of API-T into the AVEPS system to no effect.

 

I'm having a lot of success and fun with AVEPS in game, but is there an anomaly here that it is impossible to damage? Also why is it impossible to damage on the T-14 (assuming that is the case).

[Ssnake]

We'll investigate.

[Volcano]

There are no means to shoot out the AVEPS system's "radars", only AFGANIT systems have radars modeled - AVEPS is more like a self contained system (or at least we don't model all sorts of other attachments). AVEPS on the other hand can suffer damage to the AVEPS launcher (***IIRC***) which knocks out the entire system. If this does not work, then it could be a technical bug there, I suppose, but what you are basing this on?  There are no AAR reported damages about this IIRC, it just happens, its not highly refined.

 

That said, some vehicles don't show the AVEPS launcher, and some do, and obviously you cannot disable the AVEPS launcher if you cannot see it.  That is just the way it is, when we have 200+ vehicles, and no time to add the AVEPS launcher to every single model. In this case, yes, it would be invulnerable.

 

For AFGANIT vehicles, you cannot knock out the whole system per se, because its not a singular launcher. However, any vehicle that has AFGANIT can suffer radar damage. The radars work in "sectors" and certain AFGANIT launchers are assigned to a radar. So, damaging a radar will knock out a sector of defense, not the whole defense.

 

Also, the radars themselves are relatively small, and are somewhat resistant to damage, and you especially aren't guaranteed to knock them out with small arms. Anyway last time I tested this it all worked some months ago and no changes were made there - so I am not aware of any bugs there.

[Volcano]

Actually, I just tested both AVEPS and AFGANIT, again, and it works in this regard.  T-72B1 with AVEPS, shot at the launcher and hit it three times with 25mm M919.  This is not reported in the AAR, but subsequent firing of TOW missiles at the tank was ignored, and the missiles impacted the target (AVPES did not intercept - it was disabled).

 

For T-14, T-15, etc, (AFGANIT) also worked fine.  Firing 25mm at radar disabled a "sector", on the T-14 the left side defense disabled by taking out the radar on the left side of turret. The radar is the upside down trapezoidal area located on the side of the turret, in the vertical center of turret. The black rectangular box above that is NOT the radar, its the LWR. Unlike the AVEPS however, damage to the AFGANIT randar is reported in the AAR as "Light damage" (its a technical reason why AVEPS does not report damage, because its handled as an "attachment" to the vehicle, not part of the vehicle itself).

 

No time for further explanation, sorry, but no issues observed either.

[ChrisWerb]

Hi guys. I just retested. I drenched (and I mean drenched) four vehicles - a Leo2A6, CV9035NL, Boxer and DF30 with 7.62 coax, M384 40mm HV HE and 0.50 AP-T from just over 300 metres. Note that for the vehicles with no visual representation of AVEPS, I fired many rounds over the vehicle into the space that would be occupied by the system if fitted (essentially onto and over the turret top). For the Boxer and DF30 the APS was both shown as damaged in red on the screen in first person (this did not happen in the last test) and MILANs fired at the vehicle (to near miss above) did not cause APS to function. However, the vehicles with no visual representation of AVEPS on them still had perfectly working AVEPS which responded to MILANs fired from a Vector to near miss them. I'm wondering if damage to the AVEPs is only possible to vehicles that have a visual representation of the system mounted on them. {Note to self. Learn to read!]  I'm really pleased AVEPS can be damaged, at least when visualised - this system adds greatly to the simulation. I have attached the AAR.

 

Incidentally, the M153 PRotector (0.50) RWS on one of the Blue Boxers had a visual display showing SLAP loaded when the vehicle had AP-T loaded and this was correctly indicated in red at the top right of the screen. This is odd as the RWS in SB are some of the most impressively modelled subsystems IMHO.

 

As am aside, how long should it take a DF30 to reload APFSDS-T? In game it never does when commanded to, no matter how long I leave it. This is the only vehicle I'm aware of this happening with.

AVEPS sensor damage test_13164_011420HP-Z4401509.aar

Edited January 14, 2020 by ChrisWerb

[ChrisWerb]

Another AAR where I subsequently heavily dosed the DF30 and Boxer's AVEPS launchers with hundreds of rounds of 7.62x51 and they both then engaged incoming MILANs.

 

 

AVEPS sensor damage test_13164_011420HP-Z4401549.aar

[ChrisWerb]

In my next test, M384 HE on the other hand did knock out AVEPS on Boxer and DF30. The strange thing with this though was the LEMUR weapon station showed I had M430 HEDP selected whereas the normal SB display top right of screen showed the correct M384.

Edited January 14, 2020 by ChrisWerb

[Ssnake]

54 minutes ago, ChrisWerb said:

I just retested. ... for the vehicles with no visual representation of AVEPS ... still had perfectly working AVEPS

This reflects pretty much what Ed wrote. Where we can't attach a launcher to a vehicle, munitions cannot collide with the launcher, therefore it is immune to fire. The question we had to answer was, do we allow outfitting ANY vehicle with at least one active protection system for you to experiment with, or just a handful of vehicles where we can still change the 3D model.

I decided that we'd rather go with the universal solution, as imperfect as it may be.

[Ssnake]

As far as your discrepancies between ammo loaded per mission editor/AAR and what's schoien in the RWS UI, I think I know why this happened (there may be one or two more such cases but not many more); in any case, the "truth" is what the mission editor/AAR say.

[ChrisWerb]

10 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

This reflects pretty much what Ed wrote. Where we can't attach a launcher to a vehicle, munitions cannot collide with the launcher, therefore it is immune to fire. The question we had to answer was, do we allow outfitting ANY vehicle with at least one active protection system for you to experiment with, or just a handful of vehicles where we can still change the 3D model.

I decided that we'd rather go with the universal solution, as imperfect as it may be.

That's great. I'd like to than the devs for the work they put into this. It's great (whether it can be damaged or not) and adds immensely to the simulation. I'd like to see AVEPS as an option for older Russian/Soviet vehicles too.