Infantry suppression

[Bond_Villian]

Some GUI and/or visible sign when an infantry unit is suppressed would be a nice touch. Knowing when your troops are suppressed might also reduce the occurence of "why arent my fecking troops firing their rifles/RPG's" syndrome

[Ssnake]

And there you have it.

A squad, with more and more losses, is progressively hesitant to open fire.

[Bond_Villian]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

A squad, with more and more losses, is progressively hesitant to open fire.

I wasnt aware that taking losses had a persistent effect like that. I assumed that the squad would recover from the suppression after some time had elapsed (assuming they arent under fire anymore).

[Ssnake]

Maybe we shouldn't be calling it "suppression" rather than "morale", and once could certainly make the case for a much more complex sociopsychological model, but this is how Steel Beasts has handled it since, well, about forever. That's not to say that we will never change it, but it's the explanation behind why you're often observing this hesitation with infantry.

[Bond_Villian]

On 1/16/2020 at 5:42 PM, Ssnake said:

And there you have it.

A squad, with more and more losses, is progressively hesitant to open fire.

 

On 1/16/2020 at 8:47 PM, Ssnake said:

Maybe we shouldn't be calling it "suppression" rather than "morale", and once could certainly make the case for a much more complex sociopsychological model, but this is how Steel Beasts has handled it since, well, about forever. That's not to say that we will never change it, but it's the explanation behind why you're often observing this hesitation with infantry.

Is this mentioned in the documentation at all? I dont see it anywhere.

Also, if this is in fact how the infantry "morale" is modelled, (which i doubt, as it doesnt appear to work that way )  should there not be something similar applied to vehicle crews or platoons that take losses?

[Ssnake]

Historically, AFVs don't seem to suffer from morale breakdowns that much. Not because they are inherently superior to infantry (which, of course, they are, anyway), but because in a platoon or company the individual crew fights relatively isolated and don't get to see mounting losses immediately. Within the crew, I believe that with losses we show everything down a bit (maybe we should do it more) and degrade efficiency, target detection etc.

 

Good point about the lack of documentation, I have now added a paragraph to the User's Manual

[thewood]

On 1/21/2020 at 3:34 AM, Ssnake said:

Good point about the lack of documentation, I have now added a paragraph to the User's Manual

Could we get a look at that paragraph to help a little in understanding it better?

[Ssnake]

Quote

Why Doesn’t My Infantry Shoot?!

A common source of frustration and confusion among students often is the seemingly inexplicable hesitation of infantry to take a shot. There are up to three factors at play – the ammunition’s capability to damage or kill the target, target decision paralysis (many targets in range, with a similar threat level), or low morale. Since there is no morale indicator, this may be hardest to detect (other than the tell-tale sign that they don’t shoot). Generally, with mounting losses infantry becomes more and more reluctant to open fire. For a six-man squad the loss of one puts only a small dent into their will to fight, but further losses will have a bigger impact. As the survival rate dips below 50% troops can be considered largely ineffective (a highly trained unit may suffer a bit less). This can be explained both by psychological factors as well as the invisible/abstracted activity of rendering first aid to the wounded.

 

[Grenny]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

 

Yeah well, ad that some weird LOS checks where they do not shoot a tank thats showing side or ass at 100m for some odd reasons, without beeing suppressed or in contact before for some odd reasons....or the bobbing up-bobbing down routine that does nothing but alert the AFV crew...or kneeling for 20 seconds and not taking a perfectly clean shot...

 

It realy is frustrating,  esp if you use the "shot at command" and repositioning the 20th and nothing happens. If that is a symptom of the above mentioned "morale system"....there is well: Luft nach oben 😉

[Apocalypse 31]

8 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Since there is no morale indicator, this may be hardest to detect (other than the tell-tale sign that they don’t shoot). Generally, with mounting losses infantry becomes more and more reluctant to open fire. For a six-man squad the loss of one puts only a small dent into their will to fight, but further losses will have a bigger impact. As the survival rate dips below 50% troops can be considered largely ineffective (a highly trained unit may suffer a bit less). This can be explained both by psychological factors as well as the invisible/abstracted activity of rendering first aid to the wounded.

I've been playing this game since 2005 and this is the first I'm hearing of it. We really need an indicator. 

 

The infantry game is still extremely frustrating. 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Apocalypse 31

[Ssnake]

I fully agree, and we will do something about it, but that's a long-term project in any case.

[dejawolf]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

I fully agree, and we will do something about it, but that's a long-term project in any case.

it's been 16 years. people have complained the entire time. something should have been done 11 years ago. 

[stormrider_sp]

45 minutes ago, dejawolf said:

it's been 16 years. people have complained the entire time. something should have been done 11 years ago. 

Perhaps it is not that important for the 'costumer'.

[Ssnake]

I'm not going to dissect all the details in public. We chose different priorities for better or for worse, and we'll have to live with those decisions. Had we prioritized infantry behavior beyond the numerous improvements in the pathfinding field since 2014 - just one year after I assumed responsibility for software development - we'd still be stuck with the old lighting and low resolution terrain, and some would then complain about those issues instead.

[Parachuteprone]

How much work would it be to remove the morale component altogether until it could be addressed fully ?

 

[thewood]

While the paragraph that was posted helps.  It sure would be nice to get a little more detail on what effects morale, suppression, willingness to fight, etc.  It would be great if a snap of the fingers would make the infantry perfect.  But that's not going to happen.  So how about just a more detailed explanation of how it works now and maybe any short-term changes that are planned?

 

One of the serious issues I continue to see with infantry is even in older tanks with no IR capabilities, infantry get spotted quickly at very long ranges (beyond 500 meters) while in concealment terrain like tall grass and woods.  Some more detail on AFV spotting would also help. 

[Ssnake]

17 hours ago, Parachuteprone said:

How much work would it be to remove the morale component altogether until it could be addressed fully ?

Too much.

[Ssnake]

16 hours ago, thewood said:

It sure would be nice to get a little more detail on what effects morale, suppression, willingness to fight, etc.

There isn't much to it, and I described it in as much detail as I could.

[thewood]

5 hours ago, Ssnake said:

There isn't much to it, and I described it in as much detail as I could.

So the only way infantry get suppressed is if they take a casualty?

[ChrisWerb]

My own experience is that if you kill all but one of the infantry and destroy all of the IFVs, that infantryman WILL engage you (if his weapon is appropriate) no matter what. I'm not sure how that fits in with the morale model, but it always happens. It also happens that, although tanks seem very good at locating infantry in undulating ground, they often can't engage them because they don't have line of sight. That makes infantry in SB MUCH more dangerous with the new bumpy terrain model. I can't remember if it was this time around or 4.1 but infantry also got A LOT more eager to engage with shoulder launched AT in general. Pre 4.1 with the old "flat" terrain and extremely cautious infantry that spent more time break dancing and bobbing up and down than shooting, I was tearing my hair out. So, there's a long way to go, but the changes that have been made so far are really great.

[Ssnake]

One last detail, the suppression effect seems to be temporary, and they will eventually recover from losses. But yes, other than that there is no suppression in the Steel Beasts infantry.

[Apocalypse 31]

6 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

One last detail, the suppression effect seems to be temporary, and they will eventually recover from losses. But yes, other than that there is no suppression in the Steel Beasts infantry.

Odd though. 

 

Whenever I see an RPG trooper get on a knee, I can fire a burst of MG at him (and miss) and he seems to duck back.

 

I consider that suppression.

[thewood]

I am totally confused by SB's infantry model then.  Because I see the same thing.  I see infantry go prone on fire from nearby units.

[Volcano]

1 hour ago, Apocalypse 31 said:

Odd though. 

 

Whenever I see an RPG trooper get on a knee, I can fire a burst of MG at him (and miss) and he seems to duck back.

 

I consider that suppression.

Yes, unfortunately there is a bit of misinformation going on here, based on Ssnake's old memories.  I suppose its natural though given that the same product has been in continuous development for 20 years. It happens. 😮

 

There *IS* a basic form of infantry suppression, exactly as you describe. When soldiers kneel to fire an RPG, if they are fired at then they will take cover and will be unable to fire RPG.  As you say, this is suppression; firing on the enemy with an effect to pin them down and hinder them from returning fully effective fire (in this case preventing them from firing RPGs).

 

(Whether there is an actual function in the code for suppression, or whether its simply the behavior of the non-prone soldier going prone when under fire (and then being unable to fire the RPG while prone), is a technical detail - the effect is the same, they are temporarily suppressed.)

 

 

[thewood]

I have to ask; knowing the answer.  Is any of this stuff documented anywhere?

 

edit: Since this is a wishlist thread, I'll rephrase.  I wish we could get some detailed information on infantry combat.

Edited January 24, 2020 by thewood