UAV Countermeasures

[ChuikovChambered]

With the upcoming SB v.2.4 release and the promise of UAVs, I am starting this thread to discuss how to counter them. What AA units are coming up in the new release? What will their capabilities and crewable status be? And will it be possible to fly a fully crewable chopper to intercept them?

I can just imagine myself behind the door gun on a Griffon, taking aim at a UAV as Wagner's "Ride Of the Valkyries" plays on the radio. :Pilot::gun:

[oscar19681]

the tunguskta is the only way i know of to intercept the uav not sure about choppers though

[alpha6]

Ramming speed!!!

[Tacbat]

CV's with the appropriate ammo.

[Sean]

It could be a moot point, it hasn't been decided if the UAV will be in Pro PE. It could end up being a pro only feature.

[ChanceBS]

What... OK, I'm confused.

I thought the UAV had been annouced in the "Developmental News" and in the picture gallery.

What other points that are made in the "Devolopmental News" may not make it.?

Could ESIM clarify what is to be released to the general public in the upcoming payed upgrade. Simply what am I buying.

2.404

A new unit is available – a medium-sized, unmanned aerial vehicle (without armament options). For the generic model the Sperwer UAV has been chosen, although this UAV does not represent the actual performance characteristics of the Sperwer. Place it on the map like any other unit.

It can be controlled by a human player during solitaire and network training sessions, similarly to the UGV control options (Q and Z will change the flight height, not the sensor mast). If the UAV is on autopilot (you haven't manually steered it off a route) then when it gets to the end of the route it will loiter in a circle.

UAVs will not send reports about enemy unless a human operator lases an enemy; it will then be marked on the map. Consequently, computer-controlled units will hold their fire in the presence of a UAV unless it is under control of a human player (they're very hard to shoot down actually, even with 3P ammo and proximity fuse selected).

The F7 view of the UAV is mute. (There is still sound from the external position)

[ChuikovChambered]

What... OK, I'm confused.

I thought the UAV had been annouced in the "Developmental News" and in the picture gallery.

What other points that are made in the "Devolopmental News" may not make it.?

Could ESIM clarify what is to be released to the general public in the upcoming payed upgrade. Simply what am I buying.

2.404

A new unit is available – a medium-sized, unmanned aerial vehicle (without armament options). For the generic model the Sperwer UAV has been chosen, although this UAV does not represent the actual performance characteristics of the Sperwer. Place it on the map like any other unit.

It can be controlled by a human player during solitaire and network training sessions, similarly to the UGV control options (Q and Z will change the flight height, not the sensor mast). If the UAV is on autopilot (you haven't manually steered it off a route) then when it gets to the end of the route it will loiter in a circle.

UAVs will not send reports about enemy unless a human operator lases an enemy; it will then be marked on the map. Consequently, computer-controlled units will hold their fire in the presence of a UAV unless it is under control of a human player (they're very hard to shoot down actually, even with 3P ammo and proximity fuse selected).

The F7 view of the UAV is mute. (There is still sound from the external position)

As did I, which is why I started this thread in the first place. I had read in other threads notes of alarm about how UAVs would rob any attacking force of the element of surprise, and this thread is for devising counters to them in order to keep things balanced.

[TankHunter]

Then it would put the onus on the attacker to have semi-decent ADA with his attacking assets. As it was the onus on the attacker to neutralize enemy screening assets before the UAV.

I actually like the idea of UAVs (if done properly). It will add another element of friction to the battles.

[12Alfa]

As did I, which is why I started this thread in the first place. I had read in other threads notes of alarm about how UAVs would rob any attacking force of the element of surprise, and this thread is for devising counters to them in order to keep things balanced.

Ever hear of a deception plan, hiding the attacking force till needed, counter UAV drills?:confused:

[ChuikovChambered]

Ever hear of a deception plan, hiding the attacking force till needed, counter UAV drills?:confused:

I've heard of deception plans (FUSAG, for one), and hiding the attacking force is also a good plan normally. But it's hard to hide from a TI camera some 900 feet in the air. What would counter UAV drills consist of?

[GH_Lieste]

Elint triangulating the controller site, followed by liberal applications of HE?

[Ssnake]

Tunguskas are quite effective in the last test versions that I have in shooting down UAVs. Of course, this requires that the UAV is flying sufficiently high above the horizon level so that it can actually be picked up by the 2S6's radar. Flying low, on the other hand, exposes the UAV to fire from ground forces, so at least in principle the big imbalance moment that a UAV might pose has been eliminated.

Still, it requires a significant amount of consideration for any mission designer. An unopposed UAV alone, combined with sufficient artillery support, will usually tip the scenario balance in the UAV side's favor (if handled with a minimum of competence).

Equipping each and every company on the battlefield with a Tunguska, eventually even for both sides, will ratchet up the intensity of all battles and I'm somewhat in doubt that they will usually be employed with doctrinal accuracy (not the least because we don't really punish the player for wasting his air defense assets with more air attacks).

Like I wrote before, with the announcement of the final release date, the begin of the pre-order phase, I will also release a PDF file that will list the exact content of the upgrade package. The coverage of our ongoing development is a good "first order approximation" about the package content, but we cannot ignore eventual unintended negative side effects of new features. It would be foolish to include them, just because they have been mentioned at some point before the actual release.

[12Alfa]

I've heard of deception plans (FUSAG, for one), and hiding the attacking force is also a good plan normally. But it's hard to hide from a TI camera some 900 feet in the air. What would counter UAV drills consist of?

Hiding from (real) TI is not all that hard. The Serbs had NATO on the hunt on this one if you remember with simple methods.

Counter UAV drill will consist of air sentry and anti/air wpns, UAV's generally don't do the best against Stinger type of AA wpns just to name a few that I call disclose.

Edited December 6, 2008 by 12Alfa
long hrs, no sleep

[Koen]

Tunguskas are quite effective in the last test versions that I have in shooting down UAVs.

And how do helo's handle UAV ?

Can a Hind take care of them ?

And additionnaly, about:

Still, it requires a significant amount of consideration for any mission designer. An unopposed UAV alone, combined with sufficient artillery support, will usually tip the scenario balance in the UAV side's favor (if handled with a minimum of competence).

* There are already tons of things in SB that may tip the scenario balance in the favor of one side or the other:

- via events & conditions mission designers can make a player aware of unseen yet enemy units in a certain region (= a bit what an UAV does)

- mission designers can let units spawn at any moment or place

- or they simply can give too much units to a side ...

I haven't yet heard too much complaints about any of this.

* Also, in the current version of SB, I think I haven't seen an UAV (flies in the planning phase only) in any mission yet.

And one of the reasons may be that your AI-opponent cannot oppose today's UAV & ppl know that this may make the scenario too easy for themselves, so they just don't include them.

It may be different with the upcoming UAV, that can be opposed, e.g. by Tunguska.

So including an UAV that can be opposed, will mostly lead to more tactically interesting scenario's: "take care of your Tunguska's (Hinds ?), or you cannot deal with the UAV threat"

None of us are against tactically more interesting scenario's.

So, I'd vote yes for the UAV in SP Pro

(but maybe keep it out of SB2, as it is intended for a less "mature" crowd ? said without disrespect)

* Lastly, any chance to designate the UAV's camera as "ammunition" (which indirectly it is), so that it shows up automatically in the briefing as ammo now does (= warning for the player) ?

(IMHO maybe this is even too much of a giveaway)

And apart from all this: the new update will be fabulous anyway

Rgds - Koen

Edited December 6, 2008 by Koen

[Ssnake]

Hiding from (real) TI is not all that hard. The Serbs had NATO on the hunt on this one if you remember with simple methods.

Yeah, but what kind of deception elements do you have in SB Pro - none, unless you are using other virtual vehicles (e.g. blind, without ammo) which however would be "perfect" decoys - better than what you'd have in real life. So, the user's ability to perform deception is limited.

[Mogwa]

Elint triangulating the controller site, followed by liberal applications of HE?

Difficult to do, at best, if the UAV is being controlled via satellite link from Nellis AFB, Nevada.

I urge the inclusion of the UAV as strongly as I can, realizing the little amount of weight my desires carry as a non military customer. Unbalancing a sce isnt really a reason not to include a unit, as any sce designer can make a sce unbalanced with any type of unit.

Methods could be devised to counter the UAV by the sce designer. Spawning at a certain game time then damaging componants (engine, TIS, GPS) 5 or 10 minutes later would only allow limited use by the owning side, for example. That work around took me about 15 seconds to come up with and Im not even close to being a great sce designer. Who knows what imaginative folks could come up with.

[LtGeorge]

I'm not so sure if I would enjoy having a UAV dynamically controlled in the scenario. When you have more than a couple platoons, single-players spend all their time in the map playing brigade CO. Adding a UAV would mean great intelligence, yes, but also another unit to juggle that can't just park itself when not being used. In a multiplayer scenario, though, if someone concentrates on the UAV and sending out the intel, God help their opponent.

I have also wished that after the helicopters were added that AD would be added too. The Tunguska is a good step, although kind of out of order. IMHO, I would have liked to have had a first-layer AD in the form of Singer/SA14 teams and basic AD vehicles that are easy to mod, like the Linebacker, Avenger or SA-9/13 - it would be so easy too because you just mod an existing SB chassis and introduce an IR missile model. I feel the Tunguska falls in with the ZSU-23-4 and Gepard as more specialist vehicles that require a radar model, and maybe could have been introduced after more simpler AD capabilities.

Don't get me wrong - having any AD is good after the helos were introduced.

[the_13th_redneck]

I think it'll be good to have if only to get some practice coordinating with these air assets.

I don't think game balance is really a priority in the SB ProPE editions... that would depend on how we design the scenarios. The question of team balance etc. would be more of an SB 2 sort of issue I think.

As for being able to "pilot" the UAV personally, I don't think that is necessary. Just requesting/adding waypoints on the map will do. After all, we're just trying to get see what's ahead of us or to try to see where best to send our tanks rather than conduct a full blown air recon mission.

[Ssnake]

I have also wished that after the helicopters were added that AD would be added too. The Tunguska is a good step, although kind of out of order.

There is no real "radar" model. It's a mere line of sight checking with a hard-coded 1.5° horizon/minimum elevation for a target to be attacked with a missile from a distance.

The benefit of the Tunguska is that it has both missiles and gun, so the mission designer can actually set up a two-layer defense with some Tunguskas having only the 30mm guns armed, others just missiles. Finally there is an option to equip infantry missile teams with the RBS70 air defense missile (they are effectively stationary though with the heavy launcher and missiles).

[Flanker15]

I'm all for a usable UAV in SB, it's another toy for us to play with.

It's still the mission designers decsision if they want a UAV in their mission or not if they think it will unbalance the mission.

[Tacbat]

Finally there is an option to equip infantry missile teams with the RBS70 air defense missile (they are effectively stationary though with the heavy launcher and missiles).

Kinda reminds me of the Javelin when mounted on the Lightweight Mulitiple Launcher, which wasn't really "lightweight". :sonic:

[Tacbat]

Ever hear of a deception plan, hiding the attacking force till needed, counter UAV drills?:confused:

Then there's this: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ

[Floydii]

Finally there is an option to equip infantry missile teams with the RBS70 air defense missile (they are effectively stationary though with the heavy launcher and missiles).

The RBS70 teams work like a ATGM team that also shoots helos? (visual line of sight for detection and engagement? As an aside, will the RBS70 missile work on ground vehicles as well?

[Ssnake]

The RBS70 teams work like a ATGM team that also shoots helos?

No, it works as an air defense missile team that doesn't shoot ground vehicles.

[Floydii]

No, it works as an air defense missile team that doesn't shoot ground vehicles.

Having it both ways would 'value add' for your antipodean military customers.

That said, if you are doing this for the Swedes, I'm not going to comment on thier willingness to engage AFV's with RBS70.