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Gunners control. salvation?

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Posted (edited)

I suspect AFVsim / @hawes / @Crusty might be interested.

 

But given there isn't even a data sheet available to tell you what they are made from / their likely durability (for something announced in 2018), I suspect I wont by buying.

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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AFVsim still refuses to sell to non-governmental entities right?

 

I'm interested...

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No, they now have at least some export licenses. The price point is of course still considerable, but if you know where to 3D print, they offer cheaper kits for self-print and assembly.

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7 hours ago, Maj.Hans said:

AFVsim still refuses to sell to non-governmental entities right?

 

I'm interested...

Its not that "they refuse". They aren't allowed to.

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13 hours ago, Ssnake said:

No, they now have at least some export licenses. The price point is of course still considerable, but if you know where to 3D print, they offer cheaper kits for self-print and assembly.

Any idea how much for the cheaper kit?

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5 minutes ago, stormrider_sp said:

Any idea how much for the cheaper kit?

U-Hid board, some wire and some components if you are going to make the housing yourself!.

 

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I wonder the price point of the original post. Don't look much cheaper than AFV Sim TBH if they are made out of anything durable

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42 minutes ago, DarkAngel said:

I wonder the price point of the original post. Don't look much cheaper than AFV Sim TBH if they are made out of anything durable

Well I think that's the issue.

 

Page published in 2018 but no Data Sheet and all the expandable items "Key Features", "Applications" and "Standards" are empty - I suspect it didn't proceed.

 

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12 hours ago, Gibsonm said:

Its not that "they refuse". They aren't allowed to.

I realize they're based in the UK, but even there I can't imagine that video game controllers would be a secret classified item?

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Maj.Hans said:

I realize they're based in the UK, but even there I can't imagine that video game controllers would be a secret classified item?

 

 

Look up some terms like "ML Controlled", "ITAR" and "FMS". There's an EU one too, but its name escapes me.

 

It doesn't have to be "secret" to have its sales controlled / curtailed.

 

ITARs / USML covers for example:

 

    1. Firearms, Close Assault Weapons and Combat Shotguns
    2. Guns and Armament
    3. Ammunition/Ordnance
    4. Launch Vehicles, Guided Missiles, Ballistic Missiles, Rockets, Torpedoes, Bombs and Mines
    5. Explosives and Energetic Materials, Propellants, Incendiary Agents and Their Constituents
    6. Surface Vessels of War and Special Naval Equipment
    7. Ground Vehicles
    8. Aircraft and Related Articles
    9. Military Training Equipment and Training
    10. Personal Protective Equipment
    11. Military Electronics
    12. Fire Control, Laser, Imaging and Guidance Equipment
    13. Materials and Miscellaneous Articles
    14. Toxicological Agents, Including Chemical Agents, Biological Agents and Associated Equipment
    15. Spacecraft and Related Articles
    16. Nuclear Weapons Related Articles
    17. Classified Articles, Technical Data and Defense Services Not Otherwise Enumerated
    18. Directed Energy Weapons
    19. Gas Turbine Engines and Associated Equipment
    20. Submersible Vessels and Related Articles
    21. Articles, Technical Data and Defense Services Not Otherwise Enumerated

 

I'm pretty sure the UK's "ML Controlled" list is pretty close to this too.

 

They will likely have a set list of countries that they are allowed to sell to and within those countries certain groups / organisations)

 

 

Edited by Gibsonm

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From the UK Military List:

 

'ML14 - Specialised equipment for military training or for simulating military scenarios, simulators specially designed for training in the "use" of any firearm or weapon specified in ML1 or ML2, and specially designed components and accessories therefor.'

 

The control handles are not secret classified items, just controlled export items.

 

AFV Sim are registered to export under;

 

Open General Export Licence - Military Goods, Software and Technology: Government or NATO end use.

 

and; 

 

Open General Export Licence - Military Goods, Software and Technology.

 

The second licence permits us to export to any end user in a list of destinations - Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, USA.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, hawes said:

From the UK Military List:

 

'ML14 - Specialised equipment for military training or for simulating military scenarios, simulators specially designed for training in the "use" of any firearm or weapon specified in ML1 or ML2, and specially designed components and accessories therefor.'

 

The control handles are not secret classified items, just controlled export items.

 

AFV Sim are registered to export under;

 

Open General Export Licence - Military Goods, Software and Technology: Government or NATO end use.

 

and; 

 

Open General Export Licence - Military Goods, Software and Technology.

 

The second licence permits us to export to any end user in a list of destinations - Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, USA.

Oh man I used to live in the UK, if I knew I would have pushed beyond those usual 80+ work hours per week  so I could save some extra pennies .

Edited by stormrider_sp

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9 hours ago, hawes said:

From the UK Military List:

 

'ML14 - Specialised equipment for military training or for simulating military scenarios, simulators specially designed for training in the "use" of any firearm or weapon specified in ML1 or ML2, and specially designed components and accessories therefor.'

 

The control handles are not secret classified items, just controlled export items.

 

AFV Sim are registered to export under;

 

Open General Export Licence - Military Goods, Software and Technology: Government or NATO end use.

 

and; 

 

Open General Export Licence - Military Goods, Software and Technology.

 

The second licence permits us to export to any end user in a list of destinations - Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Sweden, United Kingdom, USA.

 

That's great.

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I guess I should have expected that some beaurocratic law would prevent video game controllers from being sold without jumping through hoops.

 

After all, ITAR says that these 30 round rifle magazines cannot be exported!

 

Except for the one on the right. 

 

They took the gripping ridges off so now its okay to export globally.

 

magside.jpg.657e7d0d9da01ff241d32f77dc9db0d4.jpg

 

So if your second license allows you to export to any end user in those countries, do you sell to anyone who wants and can afford one?

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25 minutes ago, Maj.Hans said:

I guess I should have expected that some beaurocratic law would prevent video game controllers from being sold without jumping through hoops.

 

After all, ITAR says that these 30 round rifle magazines cannot be exported!

 

Except for the one on the right. 

 

They took the gripping ridges off so now its okay to export globally.

 

magside.jpg.657e7d0d9da01ff241d32f77dc9db0d4.jpg

I don't see an issue with ITAR. It helps prevent things like this from occurring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army_arms_importation

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4 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

I don't see an issue with ITAR. It helps prevent things like this from occurring: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army_arms_importation

Well, ITAR creates lots of problems for us.

For example integrating an ITAR item into an other systems, allows US authorities to get access to blueprints and source codes for the whole system....

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15 minutes ago, Grenny said:

Well, ITAR creates lots of problems for us.

For example integrating an ITAR item into an other systems, allows US authorities to get access to blueprints and source codes for the whole system....

ITAR can even cover basic parts, such as nuts and bolts.

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5 hours ago, hawes said:

ITAR can even cover basic parts, such as nuts and bolts.

ITAR can make a soup spoon illegal.  Its probably done it before.  I've heard of it preventing the US from importing US made firearms that were previously given out as military aid.  WW2 era stuff.  I think it also prevented the export of some WW1 era British made Enfield rifles back to the UK or possibly to Australia from a seller in the US.  At that point they were 100+ year old bolt actions more useful as a wall decoration than weapon of war...

 

I appreciate what it was intended to prevent, however it has gotten out of control at this point and possibly filled with too many loopholes to be actually effective.  It blocks access to completely inane items, and at the same time, a company that wants to export weapons parts can do what MagPul did with the STANAG 30 round 556 magazines...  The P-Mag and E-Mag are functionally identical, but one is blocked for export and the other not because of some cosmetic changes?

 

 

Going back to the controllers, what's the cost like for just a gunner control handle?  I have some very good joysticks that work just fine for a TC controller, but they're kinda...well...Super Lame for gunnery, especially moving targets.

 

In not necessarily stuck on the idea of a direct copy of the real deal, I just want something with batter control over the inputs.

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5 hours ago, Maj.Hans said:

The P-Mag and E-Mag are functionally identical, but one is blocked for export and the other not because of some cosmetic changes?

 

Except this isn't true. The EMag is also subject to ITAR, and can only be exported with a valid export permit from the State Department. Despite no longer being in production, here are some sources: https://soldiersystems.net/2009/09/02/the-emag/ https://ustacticalsupply.com/emag30maglevel556x45magazine.aspx

 

The EMag, or Export Mag, refers to it being designed for use with "foreign" guns, such as the SA-80, HK-416, etc. 

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3 hours ago, Mirzayev said:

 

Except this isn't true. The EMag is also subject to ITAR, and can only be exported with a valid export permit from the State Department. Despite no longer being in production, here are some sources: https://soldiersystems.net/2009/09/02/the-emag/ https://ustacticalsupply.com/emag30maglevel556x45magazine.aspx

 

The EMag, or Export Mag, refers to it being designed for use with "foreign" guns, such as the SA-80, HK-416, etc. 

That's interesting, but I know for sure that the place I used to get them from did *NOT* have an ITAR restriction statement for the EMag lol.

And ironically despite being designed for "foreign" guns, my only real use for them has been US made stuff with tight magazine wells, and conversion into HK33 mags.

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