Why won't my infantry shoot the obvious enemy infantry?

[MisterCommander]

SB Pro PE 4.167

 

F7, and then N for binoculars.  This is what I see in the attached image.  I do not think this pic needs red circles to spot the bad guys, but somehow my guy cannot detect them.  I originally found them through observer view and switched to commander.

 

He did not mark them on the map, would not shoot at them on his own.  As you can see he has plenty of ammo.  Also these guys are in his cone of interests and in range.  The range was about 200 meters, says the map.  Unit is set to "Fire at will" and no range limit.  They were visible like that for at least 10 minutes.

 

I then selected "Fire at unit..." and selected the guy on the left.  Still nothing.  Then I switched to Observer view and waited.  Still nothing.  Although I did not wait long; 5 seconds.

 

Then I went back into F7, F2 aimed and fired and got my two kills without needing to reload.

 

This inability to see and take action on the obvious is happening frequently.  What am I doing wrong?

 

 

[Gibsonm]

There are "challenges" with the Infantry model (standing by for multiple interested parties to post lots of comments).

 

You often need to "do it yourself" as you did to get things done.

 

This is one of the major challenges of running an Infantry platoon (esp. with map updates off). On dismount, suddenly your 3 x BTRs (assuming this is still about "Government Action") turns into 3 x BTRs and an additional 6 or so icons which need this degree of micro management.

 

Hence my suggestion when we spoke to turn map updates "on" when attempting this as single player, so at least the AI would report spots.

 

The other possibility is if the AI didn't report these is that maybe they are neutral civvies? I remember Government Action having a Green side. If they are non combatants then that would explain the behaviour.

[MisterCommander]

Yes, it is government action sce.  I am using this sce as a training for building clearing and troop management.  Many challenges.  So much micromanaging and stay tactics.

 

Map updates are on and I have difficulty and realism set to low.  It might not be clear from the pic but both of those bad guys had rifles.  Also after 53 minutes, I think all of the civies have left town by then.  I looked at an AAR and they all seem to leave or literally just disappear from town after about 10 minutes.  Did not check the civ actions to see if it was planned that way or if it just happens for some reason.

 

Although I could be mistaken and they could be civs.  Will check the report when I finally quit.

 

But other times the AI surprises me.  They report, I look and see nothing even remotely resembling a target, they fire, but they are all about it.  Then the target is dispatched, and I never saw anything distinguishable while looking right down the gun barrel.  Computers!  Such a hoot.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[MisterCommander]

Second question in regards to infantry, is there a way to enter a building that has an enemy in it and kill him while inside?  Maybe that is not the real M.O. for this software.  It is like they run in, ignore the enemy, or stare at him and wait to get shot.  I have stopped entering building that I know have enemy in them.  HEAT rounds from a tank are gloriously fun though. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by MisterCommander

[Gibsonm]

1 hour ago, MisterCommander said:

Yes, it is government action sce.  I am using this sce as a training for building clearing and troop management.  Many challenges.  So much micromanaging and stay tactics.

 

Map updates are on and I have difficulty and realism set to low.  It might not be clear from the pic but both of those bad guys had rifles.  Also after 53 minutes, I think all of the civies have left town by then.  I looked at an AAR and they all seem to leave or literally just disappear from town after about 10 minutes.  Did not check the civ actions to see if it was planned that way or if it just happens for some reason.

 

Although I could be mistaken and they could be civs.  Will check the report when I finally quit.

 

But other times the AI surprises me.  They report, I look and see nothing even remotely resembling a target, they fire, but they are all about it.  Then the target is dispatched, and I never saw anything distinguishable while looking right down the gun barrel.  Computers!  Such a hoot.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

The AI spotting model is another "area of interest".

 

Often the AI will spot and engage based on one or two pixels (or at least less information than a human needs). Usually this excites people when its the enemy AI.

 

However given the design of the software - it wasn't designed as a first person shooter but to allow the AI vehicles (at least) to carry out orders and engage targets whilst the human as a the Platoon Commander did the planning and commanding piece.

 

Infantry modelling lags the vehicle modelling but has come along in leaps and bounds since say 2.654 or similar.

 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Gibsonm

[Gibsonm]

1 minute ago, MisterCommander said:

Second question in regards to infantry, is there a way to enter a building that has an enemy in it and kill him while inside?  Maybe that is not the real M.O. for this software.  It is like they run in, ignore the enemy, or stare at him and wait to get shot.  I have stopped entering building that I know have enemy in them.  HEAT rounds from a tank are gloriously fun though. 

 

Did you read my post about Infantry being "challenging"

 

If you use Assault you often get the right results but some other routes may give you the "walk in and say hi" outcome.

 

If you suppress the occupants with MG or Grenades or HEAT / HEP / HEF then Assault the building, you "should" "normally" get the results you want but don't be surprised if it goes pear shaped.

[Apocalypse 31]

Oh, this thread just makes me sad. 😢

[Gibsonm]

Another area to consider is the training level of your forces, as determined by the scenario designer.

 

If they are "Conscript" probably in line with a Soviet client state, then I wouldn't expect too much.

 

If they are "Elite" than perhaps they should perform better.

 

If they are "Untrained" or "Militia" (worse than Conscript) then I wouldn't be too surprised what they do.

 

Lastly if you want to have some control over the break in / clearance then I'd use a MG team (yes I know it should be providing fire support). The MG team at least lets you use the MG sight to allow you to shoot. Rifle teams use the more abstract "engage here" / "suppress here" / "engage this unit" where here is defined by a mouse click and then you need to rely on the AI to carry out your orders.

 

If you can, perhaps one MG team in fire support with a Suppress tactic and one for the break in, or a BTR for fire support and the MG team to break in / clear.

[Ssnake]

I don't think that I can contribute much here. SB Pro has grown significantly in scope, well beyond what it was originally designed for. Changing this will take a while.

 

The temptation may be there to apply procedures that you know from other combat simulation games. You may lead a happier life if you accept a higher abstraction level when it comes to infantry in SB.

I wish I had better news. Aside from the fact that over the last years we at least have demonstrated our willingness to improve this area. But it is a big area, and complex.

[MisterCommander]

Thanks for all of the suggestions.  Wanted to make sure that I was doing everything I could to make it go right.  The last time I played the scenario I finished it in 4 hours and had 26% troop losses and 13% vehicle losses.  That is much improvement over the total 95% loss I had the first time played it and then quit early because I did not have enough force remaining to do anything useful.

 

The worst challenge that I have found is that some of the buildings have opaque windows so I cannot see if they are occupied and neither can my troops.  However, if they do see fire coming from the building they will fire on it, but rarely hit the target inside.  I have had entire platoons run out of ammo doing this.  That was another hard lesson learned.  I couldn't figure out why they would not fire, but it was because they were out of ammo.  I mounted them to reload and put them back in place and they immediately started guns ablazing.  A sweet ah-ha moment.

 

I have not tried the "Suppress here" option yet, so I will try that next.

 

Lesson's Learned:

I have to give the rifle teams a good target and they will fire, but I cannot fire for them.

With the LMG team I can get behind the gun and aim and fire when needed.

Keep track of the unit's ammo quantity and vehicle mount them to resupply.  This also means that I have to properly manage their mounting vehicle's location for quick resupply.

If the building has opaque windows, then blow it up, just to be on the safe side.  The one you don't blow up will be the one to kill you.  Experience says it may take 4 or 5 rounds to dispatch all enemies inside.

Just because a building has fire coming out of the windows does not mean an enemy is not sitting in said window ready to kill you.  (Don't ask me how I know.) Apparently I have Satan himself in my scenario.  (hehe)

My troops will not enter a burning building no matter how many times I mistakenly tell them too.

For some reason troops will enter the building next door to the one you told them to enter.  I assume this is because it has better refreshments or a buffet, or it could be because they think they can see better from the other building for the direction I have the engagement-view pointing.

Troops will change their location on a floor in the building based upon their set viewing direction.  This is critical to know when needing to see around the edge of another building to acquire a target or to avoid being seen and killed.

Clear the viewing area at each floor before going to the higher floor.  Floor level plays a critical role in seeing a target and being the target.

And the odd quirk of a troop will be able to only see the edge of an enemy's sleeve at long distance and kill him, but seeing one fully, prone, with a load of RPGs on his back at 200 meters?  Nah.  He's fine.  Probably just out catching some rays and vitamin D while fully dressed head to foot.

And troop skills, that is elite vs "weekend warrior", can affect performance.

 

Thanks again, guys.  I think I am getting the hang of it.

[Gibsonm]

27 minutes ago, MisterCommander said:

My troops will not enter a burning building no matter how many times I mistakenly tell them too.

 

Well that's good thing isn't it?

  

27 minutes ago, MisterCommander said:

For some reason troops will enter the building next door to the one you told them to enter.

 

Is there a doorway on the side you are trying to enter from?

 

They wont breach blank walls / create entrances.

 

Keep at it. Once you get an understanding of their limitations they are workable, not perfect, but workable.

[Ssnake]

Units are supposed to abandon burning buildings. This may be a bug.

Then again, if no unconditioned route for their escape is scripted, the old problem comes back that they rather die in place than abandoning their post.

 

Heroes. All of them.

[Captain_Colossus]

infantry are too easy to kill in buildings because they kneel in windows and stay exposed- even if being fired upon. they don't appear to go prone, the rooms in buildings are bright and aren't shaded, the model isn't sophisticated enough that they duck or spot or fire from concealment or cover, in some ways,

this probably balances out the perceived difficulty for the AI to kill them, because a human player in a vehicle can make short work of them. in fact, i tend more to keep them out of buildings if possible, they can find better concealment in broken terrain than in buildings or on rooftops,

which fixes their positions and exposes them

[Volcano]

Infantry in buildings are not fired upon by the AI until they shoot first, or until friendlies enter the building to clear it. This allows the possibility of ambushes, because the infantry in SB cannot behave like real infantry would. Real infantry would not sit in a window, they would hide further back in the room and open fire. Also, just because someone is visible in a window, you cannot easily tell if they are armed or not. Once the occupants open fire, they become known and a valid target to all. 

 

The exception to this is infantry located on the roof of a building.

 

Otherwise everyone everywhere would know that infantry were in a building and open fire on them from long range and then that would be a complaint too. It makes more sense to give the infantry the advantage of surprise when they are located in a building.

 

Hope that helps.

[Captain_Colossus]

4 hours ago, Volcano said:

Infantry are buildings are not fired upon by the AI until they shoot first, or until friendlies enter the building to clear it. This allows the possibility of ambushes, because the infantry in SB cannot behave like real infantry would. Real infantry would not sit in a window, they would hide further back in the room and open fire. Also, just because someone is visible in a window, you cannot easily tell if they are armed or not. Once the occupants open fire, they become known and a valid target to all. 

 

 

 i wasn't aware of this, but it makes sense- i already rationalized it in a similar way, because infantry would expose themselves in windows and would be too vulnerable if they were any easier to detect or pick off than they already are.

[smithcorp]

Sorry for reanimating this old thread, but I'm interested in the mechanism that sometimes stops dismounts from leaving buildings during the course of clearing an objective in a village. I will give an engage or assault order from a building my dismounts have occupied, to another building, with a hold waypoint at the end, and sometimes the unit will refuse to leave the first building, or leave it and return to it, even when not under fire.

 

I generally assumed that this was caused by AI awareness of nearby enemies, but I've also seen it occur when there were no enemy at the objective building or on the way. I also wondered if it occurred when the dismount unit was too far from its supporting vehicle. I haven't found any definitive explanation through searching - wondering if anyone has insights?

 

smith

[Ssnake]

How far away is the next building from your current position if they don't want to move?

Maybe there's a distance threshold involved.

[smithcorp]

Say, 2 buildings along from their present one - less than 100m. I've also tried changing the building i want them to go to, with no improvement.

[Ssnake]

But is it consistent that the required distance is 100m?

You could check the coordinates in the AAR with high precision.