IrishHussar Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 Hi all I attended an online brief yesterday about how the British Army are using disaggregated training using online simulations. It was quite an eye opener considering I work in that field and was totally unaware of quite a large project called "Fight Club". They are a group of academics, military and gamers who are using whatever sim they deem fit in order to practice the art of wargaming. At the moment I have downloaded a demo version of Combat Mission Shock Force 2 (CMSF2) which is one of their Sims of choice. My questions to this community are: Are there any others here that are aware or are participants of this group? I do believe this is all open source and is gaining quite a momentum. Are there any other users of CMFS2 who could give general advice on how it works? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 (edited) I contributed to the initial CMSF / USMC / NATO, etc. family all based on a "liberation of Syria". I presume it (and Black Sea) is based on that methodology as CMSF in turn is based on their Second World War family of titles. I can give you a run down if you like. Either tonight on TS (will loiter for 30 mins) or tomorrow. BLUF: Either turn based or RTS. Small maps (say 2km x 3 km). A grid on the map when each square allows a certain action. Similar route / waypoint methodology. NATO stuff outclassed Syrian in CMSF, I expect CMSF2 makes OPFOR more "near peer". This guy "Usually Hapless" features some good replays: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9egpHJiRis89uHkeyJiEug Not meant to be an endorsement for the product. We are doing something similar but using the limited (in terms of reduced features) "free to ADF" version of SB Pro. Edited July 1, 2020 by Gibsonm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 Maybe tomorrow ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishHussar Posted July 1, 2020 Author Share Posted July 1, 2020 Hi Mark thanks for the prompt response. I would presume its a little late now so perhaps tomorrow would be better. best regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted July 1, 2020 Share Posted July 1, 2020 Yes sorry. I can be on TS at say 0800 GMT that would give us an hour pre BG ANZAC? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishHussar Posted July 2, 2020 Author Share Posted July 2, 2020 That would be cool. Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted July 2, 2020 Share Posted July 2, 2020 36 minutes ago, IrishHussar said: That would be cool. Thanks See you then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraze Posted July 31, 2020 Share Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) Because this topic exists I have a few things to say about Combat Mission series. Any current Combat Mission is a damn fine game that simulates company/battalion level combat down to incredible detail incl. ballistics, individual soldier morale and even stuff like soldiers crawling to their out-of-action comrades to take their ammo. When played on a highest difficulty setting it gets to a point where you have to keep squads in communication with their command - because they will shoot their buddies in the neighboring building if they don't know about their presence there and are under stress. There's even more detail - like firing missiles from inside the building will suppress or even injure friendly soldiers due to backblast and if somebody is badly wounded - you need to let his teammates perform first aid or the soldier will have a high chance of dying when the mission ends. Even tanks are simulated on the same level as in Steel Beasts if not even better - with ERA and SLAT armor actually working - down to such micro detail that in certain tanks you need to have tank commander unbuttoned to increase crew's situational awareness because of extremely limited FOV inside the tank. And yes individual systems can be damaged or destroyed. Tanks can even get detracked if moved through mud during or after the downpour. There's quite no other strategy game like these ones - but, alas, the price is that it's another niche title and thus a concept like UI/UX is entirely alien to the dev team - so in between fighting the enemy you will fight an even worse foe - a dated interface. Edited July 31, 2020 by kraze 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssidiver Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 Combat Mission may be a wonderful game, but I used it, enjoyed it, then stopped loading. I had to contact 'customer support' by e mail (that was the only choice I had) because the game would not load anymore. These e mails went on for months with no solution offered, except an inference that I should buy it again. I was pushing to get a fresh download and try that, since I had already bought it. Finally one of them told me (after I had said I was done with this farce) it can stop working for many reasons, even just plugging a new USB can stop it opening. So ditched it, not because it was a bad game; because of the customer support! I'm sure others have had much better experiences than mine, but come on an additional USB breaks it! Maybe they have fixed that now, but I'll never go back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 2 hours ago, kraze said: Even tanks are simulated on the same level as in Steel Beasts if not even better - with ERA and SLAT armor actually working - down to such micro detail that in certain tanks you need to have tank commander unbuttoned to increase crew's situational awareness because of extremely limited FOV inside the tank. And yes individual systems can be damaged or destroyed. Tanks can even get detracked if moved through mud during or after the downpour. Have you even played Steel Beasts? While no game is perfect, CM has major issues with tank combat...lack of true depression and elevation limits, no halt to fire, manual hull down and battle position maneuvering, etc. CM has some good features like full replay of turns, machine gun capabilities, some of its infantry combat has grown to be very interesting. But the game also has serious issues on modern hardware. You almost have to keep an old PC around to run it. The DRM is a nightmare at times and is very long in the tooth. And if anyone thinks SB has a slow update cycle, its nothing compared to CM. So take all those things you like and compare them to Graviteam or Steel Beasts. CM is more of virtual miniatures game, Graviteam is a WW2 east from tactical combat simulator, and SB is an AFV-centric combined arms game/simulator. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ssnake Posted August 1, 2020 Members Share Posted August 1, 2020 I liked the original Combat Mission as a turn based strategy game that would work well for the battalion level. The product design decision to pursue a real-time strategy was one that I wouldn't have recommended since, predictably, they had to confine the new version to company level engagements; a step back in scope that I at least regret. The addition of modern tanks is particularly questionable given the dimensions of map sizes that the engine can handle, which forces players to decide if they want to have standoff range for their M1s and no effective tactical mobility, or let them drive around but then come in close contact with weapons that could otherwise not harm you. Tank-on-tank engagements are therefore not particularly well made, especially if reinforcements are involved which materialize out of thin air at a map edge. On the other hand, infantry-centric urban combat is well represented. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ht-57 Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 11 hours ago, ssidiver said: I had to contact 'customer support' by e mail (that was the only choice I had) because the game would not load anymore. Wow Gr8 to know! I just tried my install and the same thing happened- So I reinstalled it and no joy. I have FB/BN/RT. There is no way I'm repurchasing all that again. There is a silver lining tho after 13 years old faithful err, I mean SBPROpe keeps on cranking along! Lets see Battlefront simulate that! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewood Posted August 1, 2020 Share Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) I have found the customer support at BFC pretty good. I have to contact them at least once a year for new activations as I move to new laptops. They are generally fast and efficient. The main issue with CM right now is the age of the engine. In 2007, when the new CM2 engine was released, the new engine was already woefully obsolete. They keep putting out new games and content on that engine at a very slow pace. Serious issues crop up and it takes them six months to put out a fix. I'll note the SB engine is also old, but the esims team has been able to make some significant upgrades to the engine over the last ten years. Something BFC hasn't done. The other issue, and SB suffers a little from this too, is the amount of work needed to put out a good scenario. The only saving grace is they have a random scenario generator that is adequate for a good game or two. But what CM really lacks is scripting, tactics, and any other kind of SOP capability. That means you have to be the brains of almost every single unit on the map. It gets tiring. Especially after playing SB where you can expect to be able to do some heavy planning and still have your units behave somewhat intelligently if you aren't sitting on their shoulder. Edited August 1, 2020 by thewood 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssidiver Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 OK, Just checked my email, it started 0n 5/10/14 and ended 25/10/14. I had to use their sales e mail, because it existed and I got this error when trying to open an support ticket: " Here is the info I put into the 'support' form: New Ticket 1 error prohibited this guest request from being saved There were problems with the following fields: Ticket queue incorrect id " They pointed me to the help desk e mail The last email I received from them included: " Which brings us to how we can help you now. The error code that you are getting is not one that I have seen before. It looks like Martin is the one who replied in the email exchange that you included in your initial contact. He's been around this a lot longer than me and even said "I've never seen it before." " So all confidence in any of their products disappeared! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocalypse 31 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 Context: https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2020/06/11/uk-fight-club/ This looks awesome. I prefer Battle Academy 2 over Shock Force 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red2112 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 On 7/1/2020 at 11:24 AM, IrishHussar said: Hi all I attended an online brief yesterday about how the British Army are using disaggregated training using online simulations. It was quite an eye opener considering I work in that field and was totally unaware of quite a large project called "Fight Club". They are a group of academics, military and gamers who are using whatever sim they deem fit in order to practice the art of wargaming. At the moment I have downloaded a demo version of Combat Mission Shock Force 2 (CMSF2) which is one of their Sims of choice. My questions to this community are: Are there any others here that are aware or are participants of this group? I do believe this is all open source and is gaining quite a momentum. Are there any other users of CMFS2 who could give general advice on how it works? You can find plenty of content in the thread below... https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11699-wargames/ Have fun! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibsonm Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Red2112 said: You can find plenty of content in the thread below... https://www.steelbeasts.com/topic/11699-wargames/ Have fun! His original enquiry was related to using commercial off the shelf (COTS) products to achieve distributed training in the current COVID environment. Not so much CMSF2 and other Wargames in a general / entertainment sense. Edited August 2, 2020 by Gibsonm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red2112 Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Gibsonm said: His original enquiry was related to using commercial off the shelf (COTS) products to achieve distributed training. Not so much CMSF2 and other Wargames in a general / entertainment sense.. No harm in letting him know there´s a thread dedicated to wargames is there? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen Posted August 2, 2020 Share Posted August 2, 2020 7 hours ago, Apocalypse 31 said: Context: https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2020/06/11/uk-fight-club/ This looks awesome. I prefer Battle Academy 2 over Shock Force thx for the link! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parachuteprone Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 Too bad there isn't something up to date thats steel beasts like for WW2. Something that lets you command from the turret. Think I've looked at them all Combat mission gives just 3rd person view which is what held me back from getting it. Maybe someday. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ht-57 Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 5 hours ago, Parachuteprone said: Too bad there isn't something up to date thats steel beasts like for WW2. Although its not really ready for prime time yet check out - IL2 tankcrew - They have the panther and I love me some panther! they model driver/gunner/radio operator and commander positions in their afv's. Definitely "Has" potential... until you attempt to use the editor (in my case anyway). then you really appreciate what sbpro has done in that dept! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parachuteprone Posted August 3, 2020 Share Posted August 3, 2020 2 hours ago, ht-57 said: Although its not really ready for prime time yet check out - IL2 tankcrew - They have the panther and I love me some panther! they model driver/gunner/radio operator and commander positions in their afv's. Definitely "Has" potential... until you attempt to use the editor (in my case anyway). then you really appreciate what sbpro has done in that dept! I looked at that one early on. Seemed pretty basic at the time I'll take a 2nd look. Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggydog Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 I don't think you'll ever get anything with the fidelity of SB in a WWII sim. Remember SB is primarily an active military training tool. Unless you have a time machine, there is no market for that in regards to WWII equipment. I'm not saying there can not be a good WWII Tank sim. Just it will be very different from SB as it will be being made entirely for a commercial market 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red2112 Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 (edited) Panzer Elite is about the only thing remotely close to a SB equivalent for WWII... https://www.gog.com/game/panzer_elite_se and that is saying to much. No multicrew. Next in line would be Steel Fury: Kharkov 1942... http://graviteam.com/games/steel-fury-kharkov1942.html Red Edited August 4, 2020 by Red2112 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoggydog Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 Just found out CMSF2 and a number of expansions are heading to Steam and other digital DL providers very soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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