Two questions about T-72B1 TC position

[T-72]

 

I recently started to practice the TC position of T-72B1. I encountered two questions during the practice. I checked the manual, but the manual did not mention how to solve it, so I had to post again for help.

 

（1）As a TC, I already know how to order an AI gunner to shoot at the target I instruct. But what confuses me is that when I command the gunner to shoot the target I instructed as a TC，it's always hard for AI gunners to hit fast moving targets in the distance. As a TC, how can the AI gunner hit a moving target in the distance?

 

(2)We know that the tkn-3 periscope used in T-72B1 can measure distance, and I already know what to do. But I have a question: can the tkn-3 commander's periscope be used to roughly determine the appropriate lead for moving target? If it is possible,, who can teach me how to measure? thank you.

[Ssnake]

The basic procedures are described in the SB Wiki:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=T-72B1_(m.1984)#Lead

 

Now, the ballistic computer in the T-72 doesn't include lead calculation. This may contribute to the reasons why AI gunners miss, although I cannot rule out a bug, and I won't spend much time searching the bug tracking database, sorry. My recommendation would be in the case of moving targets to take the shot yourself.

 

As far as lead calculation is concerned, it's effectively a linear function of the time of flight. As a first order approximation, use the muzzle velocities of your different munitions. Suppose your APFSDS round has a muzzle velocity of 1,800m/sec and your target is at 1,500m, expecting a time of flight of one second is a useful guess. You could measure how many mils the target will travel within one second, and then apply as much lead. HEAT and HE-F rounds can be expected to fly at half the muzzle velocity (=twice as long). The difference will actually become bigger at range, but then again shooting moving targets with HEAT at ranges above 1.5 kilometer is literally taking a long shot/a somewhat desperate measure.

Not that Steel Beasts wouldn't allow you to train yourself for exactly that kind of scenario, if you like practicing your skills over and over and over and over again. After all, these virtual rounds cost no money.

 

 

Alternatively you could try to estimate the target's velocity by the size of it's dust plume. Fast targets would travel off-road at maybe 30km/h, or 8.333 meters per second. That's about a tank's length. So, with APFSDS, give a tank's length as lead, applied from the center or the target, if it is moving exactly perpendicular to your position. Most likely, it's driving at an obligue angle, probably somewhat towards you. So, use half the lead. IOW, aim at the forward edge of the hull.

And double all that, if you're not shooting APFSDS.

 

It's not perfect, but it's a useful rule of thumb. Treat it as a starting point for your investigation, not as gospel.

[Vikingo]

Great tips!! Yesterday thinking about the mighty T-72 I ask myself why the laser range finder red dot is not centered with the actual aim/hit point? Please any technical info about that? Why they didn't just place the damn red dot in the center so you don't have to recenter all the system and shoot? 😅 Just normal Russian tech or Alien crash site recovered one? 👽 Can we mod it in sim? (I know NO -I tried-)

[Ssnake]

From my limited understanding, they simply never bothered with the effort of lining it up with the crosshairs, and every batch of T-72s would have it somewhere else. Originally we randomized its location so that it would be in a different place in every tank you hopped in, but we were later assured that in real life it wasn't quite so bad.

[T-72]

2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

The basic procedures are described in the SB Wiki:

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=T-72B1_(m.1984)#Lead

 

Now, the ballistic computer in the T-72 doesn't include lead calculation. This may contribute to the reasons why AI gunners miss, although I cannot rule out a bug, and I won't spend much time searching the bug tracking database, sorry. My recommendation would be in the case of moving targets to take the shot yourself.

 

As far as lead calculation is concerned, it's effectively a linear function of the time of flight. As a first order approximation, use the muzzle velocities of your different munitions. Suppose your APFSDS round has a muzzle velocity of 1,800m/sec and your target is at 1,500m, expecting a time of flight of one second is a useful guess. You could measure how many mils the target will travel within one second, and then apply as much lead. HEAT and HE-F rounds can be expected to fly at half the muzzle velocity (=twice as long). The difference will actually become bigger at range, but then again shooting moving targets with HEAT at ranges above 1.5 kilometer is literally taking a long shot/a somewhat desperate measure.

Not that Steel Beasts wouldn't allow you to train yourself for exactly that kind of scenario, if you like practicing your skills over and over and over and over again. After all, these virtual rounds cost no money.

 

 

Alternatively you could try to estimate the target's velocity by the size of it's dust plume. Fast targets would travel off-road at maybe 30km/h, or 8.333 meters per second. That's about a tank's length. So, with APFSDS, give a tank's length as lead, applied from the center or the target, if it is moving exactly perpendicular to your position. Most likely, it's driving at an obligue angle, probably somewhat towards you. So, use half the lead. IOW, aim at the forward edge of the hull.

And double all that, if you're not shooting APFSDS.

 

It's not perfect, but it's a useful rule of thumb. Treat it as a starting point for your investigation, not as gospel.

Thank you for your kind answer. Your answer was really too professional and it benefited me a lot😁. I immediately understood what to do. By the way, at the TKN-3 periscope view, is the density scale circled in red in my picture used to manually estimate lead?

[Gibsonm]

 

1 hour ago, T-72 said:

By the way, at the TKN-3 periscope view, is the density scale circled in red in my picture used to manually estimate lead?

 

 

Well the short answer would be "yes".

 

The longer answer is:

 

If you know how far the target might travel in the time required (based on its speed) and the range then you can use it to aim off.

 

e.g. if its going at 40Kph then in one minute it will travel roughly 666m or 11m in one second.

 

If the range is approx 1,000m (from the laser range finder) and if the lines are 10mils apart (sorry but the only T-72 turrets I've looked inside were burnt / scrap so I can't say - perhaps the Wiki entry can help) then at 1,000m the target would cover the space between two graticule lines.

 

Accordingly, if you aim off one line in the red oval, then between firing and the round arriving at that spot, the target should cover the gap.

 

Of course if it stops moving / speeds up / slows down / changes direction it all changes, but at short ranges and if you aim at "centre of mass" then you should hit something (perhaps the front or rear instead of the centre).

 

At longer ranges it gets more interesting.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Gibsonm

[T-72]

1 hour ago, Gibsonm said:

Well the short answer would be "yes".

 

The longer answer is:

 

If you know how far the target might travel in the time required (based on its speed) and the range then you can use it to aim off.

 

e.g. if its going at 40Kph then in one minute it will travel roughly 666m or 11m in one second.

 

If the range is approx 1,000m (from the laser range finder) and if the lines are 10mils apart (sorry but the only T-72 turrets I've looked inside were burnt / scrap so I can't say - perhaps the Wiki entry can help) then at 1,000m the target would cover the space between two graticule lines.

 

Accordingly, if you aim off one line in the red oval, then between firing and the round arriving at that spot, the target should cover the gap.

 

Of course if it stops moving / speeds up / slows down / changes direction it all changes, but at short ranges and if you aim at "centre of mass" then you should hit something (perhaps the front or rear instead of the centre).

 

At longer ranges it gets more interesting.

 

Do you mean that the density scale circled in red can be used to estimate the lead manually?

[Gibsonm]

3 minutes ago, T-72 said:

Do you mean that the density scale circled in red can be used to estimate the lead manually?

Yes.

 

I was answering your question immediately above my answer.

 

I've now included your quote to make it clearer.

[T-72]

2 minutes ago, Gibsonm said:

Yes.

 

I was answering your question immediately above my answer.

 

I've now included your quote to make it clearer.

 

Thank you very much for your answer, I will practice seriously.😎

[Gibsonm]

Just remember though you can't fire the gun from the Commander's position (i.e. no equivalent of the "from my position" drills available to Leopard, M1, etc.).

 

You can acquire the tgt in the Commander's periscope, slew the gun to the rough position but then you'd need to move to F6 to actually fire (using the GPS).

 

From the Wiki:

 

The right handle's button is used to slew the gun to place its azimuth in the direction that the periscope is looking while the button is held. This feature is represented by holding the . key, and is used to more or less put the gunner onto an intended target or to have him look in a certain direction. Note that holding this key while also moving around the periscope will override the turret and have it follow the periscope, although the TC cannot fire the main gun himself.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Gibsonm

[T-72]

9 minutes ago, Gibsonm said:

Just remember though you can't fire the gun from the Commander's position (i.e. no equivalent of the "from my position" drills available to Leopard, M1, etc.).

 

You can acquire the tgt in the Commander's periscope, slew the gun to the rough position but then you'd need to move to F6 to actually fire (using the GPS).

 

From the Wiki:

 

The right handle's button is used to slew the gun to place its azimuth in the direction that the periscope is looking while the button is held. This feature is represented by holding the . key, and is used to more or less put the gunner onto an intended target or to have him look in a certain direction. Note that holding this key while also moving around the periscope will override the turret and have it follow the periscope, although the TC cannot fire the main gun himself.

 

👍👍

[Vikingo]

4 hours ago, Ssnake said:

From my limited understanding, they simply never bothered with the effort of lining it up with the crosshairs, and every batch of T-72s would have it somewhere else. Originally we randomized its location so that it would be in a different place in every tank you hopped in, but we were later assured that in real life it wasn't quite so bad.

wow! another thing to add to the massive difference in technology with the "west" tanks, I like the T-72 (a lot) but I always end inside the Leo 2 A4 😎 thanks for the reply 👍

ps : happy the red dot is not random in the sim 😅

[Ssnake]

I thought the randomization had a certain East Bloc charm. Anyway, it's a classic example of Pareto effort. Having the laser range finder gives you 80% of the benefit. Making it perfectly align drives up the integration costs at the factory with only gradual functional benefit. It's "irritating" but not debilitating in this fire control system. The Soviets tried to optimize for minimal production cost and minimal production time. So, in a way it's radical pragmatism at work.