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20 minutes ago, DarkAngel said:

The option for "Hold Alt for navmesh route" is under options when in the map view (F5)

 

Yes I know - I even included a screenshot with that choice highlighted. :(

 

But that means every time I want to create one with a Navmesh I need to hold down the ALT key?

 

It does not "toggle" on/off.

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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12 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Breach routes are best made without pathfinding because that's the point of them - connecting navigable areas with a passage through or over an obstacle that is otherwise forcing a detour (because that's the point of obstacles).

 

Once that the breach is complete - whether that's an assault bridge or a lane through a minefield - using routes with navmesh support will recognize the new passage, and take advantage of it (if it shortens their travel route).

 

Also that's where we started.

 

Selecting a breach route without holding down the ALT key lead to a route that went around the river - not across it. :(

 

Pressing ALT at least made the route go across the river and made the AVLB deploy.

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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11 minutes ago, Gibsonm said:

Hang on - so you are no saying I need two routes for the one breach?

No, that's not what I meant.

There's nothing wrong with connecting other units to follow the same breach route as previous engineer assets, after said assets opened the route.

BUT you may not always be in full control of all the units in a scenario (in a network session, say), so once that a breach is complete other people can plot routes with navmesh support on, and the routes would automatically snap to the passage even if they couldn't use your breach route because it is owned by you.

OR the breach route may be gone because you didn't connect other units to the root waypoint before your engineer asset completed the breach, so it was auto-deleted.

It may even be that the nav mesh and AI pathfinding are smart enough now to recognize that the breach passage is so narrow that they need to travel it in column formation. But I haven't tested it yet, and I don't remember if this is still in development (pending a future upgrade) or available already.

 

As others already identified further up, one of the problems you reported stems from the fact that the root point of your breach route was too close to the obstacle; for the AI it was already "inside" the obstacle so it wouldn't connect to it.

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18 minutes ago, DarkAngel said:

No, it's a toggle and the setting is saved. 

 

Not when creating routes it isn't.

 

Go to create Route 1:

 

Hold Alt key to plot Navmesh routes.

 

Go to create Route 2:

 

Hold Alt key to plot Navmesh routes.

 

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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4 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

IF you change it once in the Options menu of the map view while you're playing/testing a scenario.

 

Sorry, I need to play / test an existing scenario, change it in the Options and then got back to create a new scenario for that change to take effect?

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Just now, DarkAngel said:

No it is immediate and it is saved

Navmesh_Toggle.png

 

I'm in the Mission Editor, trying to create a scenario.

 

I'm not playing an existing scenario!!!

 

These choices are not here.

 

From above this is what I see:

 

1073920633_AltforNavmesh.thumb.png.254c9644b91e6f225206b9507b8d8b17.png

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4 minutes ago, DarkAngel said:

Yes that item in the menu is also a toggle

 

 

NO it isn't.

 

Again from above:

 

Go to create Route 1:

 

Hold Alt key to plot Navmesh routes.

 

Go to create Route 2:

 

Hold Alt key to plot Navmesh routes.

 

At no point after using the ALT key does it change to "Hold ALT key to not plot Navmesh routes".

 

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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Just now, DarkAngel said:

if you click on that menu item it will be turned on or off.. Same as it has been since the navmesh was introduced.

 

That doesn't really help because soon after it was introduced we were told not to use it and I at least consigned Navmesh to the pile of "undocumented black magic" like creating Operations and various other features that never seem to be clearly explained / documented.

 

In any case that takes us back to the start of the saga.

 

From your comment above if there is no tick then I don't need to hold the ALT key, ergo Navmesh routes are created by default? Yes?

 

The initial scenario was created that way (hand never went near the Alt key) so all routes should be created with Navmesh, but the AVLB doesn't want to go anywhere near the river.

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4 hours ago, Splash said:

 

This particular part of your problem, I'm pretty sure, can be fixed by moving Waypoint 2 away from the obstacle and/or changing the tanks' route from it to COLUMN rather than WEDGE.

As it is, the lead tank is sending a "Wedge" formation order to its wingmen before they even reach the bridge.

 

@Splash Thanks for that.

 

I had been focusing on the approach, not the far bank.

 

@Rhyfel After much futzing around please find attached. I went back and did the river too.

 

Trigger 1 launches the River / wet gap serial.

 

Trigger 2 launches the dry gap crossing.

 

Jump from one Recce Team to the other to see the action at the crossing points.

 

I still have no clear understanding of Navmesh and creating routes that use it or don't so your mileage may vary (perhaps I'm just thick, but it is in no way intuitive to me - hence the 5+ hours to do this).

 

 

Scripted Bridging 4_250 - Nav Mesh.sce 1045631418_ScriptedBridging4_250-NavMesh_9852_012521MARKS-PC-2010848.aar

Edited by Gibsonm
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Ok I am guessing the route in question is the one near 3/A. This route was plotted with navmesh on which is why the route is avoiding the water. (With "Hold alt to plot navmesh route" off / unticked ) if you try and plot a route between WP 6 and 7 the route will avoid the water. If you instead hold alt (to plot a non navmesh route) between wp 6 and 7 then the unit lays a bridge just fine.

 

What Nils is saying is about subsequent units During runtime if plotting a navmesh route after the bridge is laid will find the route across. This will not work in the mission editor though as the laid bridge is not present while plotting the routes. In this case you have to use a NON-Navmesh to get them across the bridge which will be there.

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I'm a simple guy and I need to teach Trainees in a small window how to do this (since allegedly I'm the SME).

 

What I need are simple statements in the manual along the lines of:

  • For a Breach route always plot a non navmesh route.

Not technical "gibberish" (perhaps a harsh term) about "route optimisation between the current route node ..."

 

Ideally though selecting a Breach route will automatically tell the software that you want a non navmesh route (to avoid holding down the ALT key or whatever).

 

We talk about step learning curves / barriers to entry, but if someone who as used this since 2003 has issues, then you shouldn't be surprised if someone gives up after only a month or two.

 

IMHO, the more "feature rich" you make the product, the clearer and more "effects based" you need to documentation to be.

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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Well the system doesn't know what type of unit you are sending into a discreet breach route. You could be sending a miclic or an AEVinto it, in which case you would not want the system to turn off the Navmesh following behaviour and sending them to their deaths in a river. This decision has to be with the mission creator. 

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Unfortunately the "mission creator" I deal with has been introduced to the product this morning and is now creating a mission to replicate their plan for execution this afternoon.

 

We do not have the luxury of a two week "introduction to SB" course, then give them adequate time to develop their plan (which they are assessed on) and then allowing them another week to build / test their plan.

 

I regularly need to intervene as the Instructor Host to ensure that the tool does not disadvantage the Trainee.

 

On a more constructive note:

 

Given that the AVLB or the MICLIC / Plough, etc. create a graphic for a successful breach (the green bridge or the black breach) couldn't the software be adjusted to look for that information?

 

e.g. "If bridge graphic present (i.e. successful AVLB deployment) then use a non navmesh route, if no graphic, then use a navmesh route?

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It does, though not exactly the way you describe it. But once that a breach is complete, separated navigable areas are being connected, and the map graphic changes from "in progress" (dashed line) to "complete" (assuming you use a mine plow across a minefield), at which point the lane is being recognized.

 

But while you're in the Planning Phase or the Mission Editor, that can't happen because there is no progression of time. The plow needs to drive through the minefield first, which can happen only after Mission Start. Which is why the breach lane does not exist yet in the Planning Phase, just the graphical OpPlan that expresses an intent to create something over there.

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