Hand Crank Turrets

[Apocalypse 31]

17 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Nevertheless, intensified lobbying by a small group of users will be less convincing than a broad support by many users of this board.

Two Three beta testers already said they prefer the current setup, so I'm guessing this is worthless to pursue. 

 

Have fun jamming on keys, I guess?

Edited January 24, 2021 by Apocalypse 31

[Mirzayev]

9 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

Neither is using the mouse.

 

My point is that using a different control scheme to "simulate" something when it doesn't add anything to the simulation is silly. Why not have players in the M2A2 have to start pressing "P" as quickly as possible to "simulate" feeding 7.62 rounds through the feeder? Why not have players press CTRL+ALT+Q to "simulate" opening an M240L cover to actually put in the rounds? 

 

When wanting to manually traverse, I still have to go through the process of changing the required settings in the vehicle to ensure that I can actually traverse the turret manually, whether this be unlocking the manual traverse locks, or changing the FCS' mode of operation. Is it worth "simulating" me as the gunner physically moving my hands from the gunner's controls to the hand cranks even though I had to place deliberate thought into getting the turret to traverse manually in the first place? 

 

I'll use the example of using the master blaster as a success story. "Space" represents the normal method of fire. When that doesn't work, I just press Shift+Space to trigger the master blaster. Yes, I have to go through the thought process of realizing that the regular method of firing the main gun is not working, but I don't have to change the scheme of control in a drastic manner. Imagine if instead I had to press "*+NUMPAD 3." Sure, I have to relocate my hand on the keyboard, and it is an awkward combination outside of the traditional SB keyboard heatmap as posted by @Apocalypse 31, but I STILL have to go through the thought process of activating the master blaster either way. All it does is make it harder on the player, who by the way, might have physical limitations in what they can and can't do. 

[Major duck]

Another way of moving the turret instead of with arrows would be the same as all other vehicles when you start it goes relatively fast but than with more use it slows down just like when the infantry moves they also use "wasdx" not repeated clicks with the arrow keyes when they move there could even be that bar from INF movement as well

MD

 

[Lumituisku]

I have love hate relationship to arrow keys.  Love because how original those are and how those give that feeling, sounds and all.    And those are actually more conveniend than actual hand crank device in many ways.  I feel that I need to do so much physical work with hand cranks  vs  tapping lazily arrow keys.   (Ps you only need to tap moderate speed for a while to get max movement)  

 

My hate towards arrow keys comes from imprecicion of those.. and that those cannot be used effectively simultaneously, and if I remember correctly those as well cancel mouse movements because arrow keys are used for more functions than just hand cranks (view for example)    I wish you could use both directions, and or mouse movements same time without there being weird eeer.. stops of movement.   Also wish for more precicion for small movements...    I think what Rotar suggested is actually brilliant idea and would solve all my trifles with arrow keys with easy way.  rather than going in depth of why arrow keys as currenly are.. are so.. "buggy"  

 

Also...  I dearly wish that support for rotary encoders would be applied to sim, so that people could make their own  hand cranks.  It adds so much immersion to be able to use such.   I bet that it would still work even if it was just  mount for rotary encoder and some sort of tiny lever on it.

[Lumituisku]

1 hour ago, Major duck said:

Another way of moving the turret instead of with arrows would be the same as all other vehicles when you start it goes relatively fast but than with more use it slows down just like when the infantry moves they also use "wasdx" not repeated clicks with the arrow keyes when they move there could even be that bar from INF movement as well

MD

 

 hate to admid this, but from session as Scimitar gunner with hand cranks..  i was totally fatigued xP   

[DarkAngel]

19 minutes ago, Lumituisku said:

 hate to admid this, but from session as Scimitar gunner with hand cranks..  i was totally fatigued xP   

Try it with traverse wheels!!. I can hit a moving target while on the move.

[Gibsonm]

36 minutes ago, DarkAngel said:

Try it with traverse wheels!!. I can hit a moving target while on the move.

 

Which you can't do in RL with hand powered traverse.

 

You can maybe hit it if its slowly tracking from left to right or something and you are static, but not if both parties moving.

 

You are obtaining outcomes in your "simulation" that are not possible in the real world - is that an outcome I'm meant to take away from this?

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Gibsonm

[Lumituisku]

2 minutes ago, DarkAngel said:

Try it with traverse wheels!!. I can hit a moving target while on the move.

Thats what I was actually happening to refer to..  I do happen to own traverse wheels myself.  I was nut's enough to get such.    Very hard work,  but I can't see how you can hit something when on move, unless youre driving on a smooth road.   

[DarkAngel]

didn't say i was moving fast

 

Also didn't say it wasn't a lucky shot.

Edited January 24, 2021 by DarkAngel

[Rotareneg]

Key tapping works fine for anti-aircraft usage in the scimitar:

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Rotareneg

[Nike-Ajax]

8 hours ago, DarkAngel said:

Honestly my opinion is a bit biased. I have traverse wheels and like the current system. IMHO what is needed is access to an sollution which allows people to make traverse wheels at a reasonable cost. Both th U-HID and Leo Bodnar cards allow for rotary encoder input (essential for proper traverse wheels).

 

With respect and without trying to be insolent or snide:

That will for +95% of the players never ever happen.

 

 

8 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Neither is using the mouse.

 

What I'm trying to say here is, we can only discuss tradeoffs here. There is no perfect solution because the closest-to-reality solution is an actual hand crank replica which however cannot be assumed as a given for the 99% majority of users.

 

I can see the logic of both sides. What I would like to submit is that in real life you have ways of making it better and quicker, than the arrows allow. The biggest issue for me is not the slow speed (although that is also very annoying), but rather the fine adjustment.

Leaving that aside then from an ergonomic standpoint, then the arrows are a nightmare. After a 2 hr game my wrists are beyond sore.

And on a final note I would also calmly note that in our MP sessions plus having demonstrated SB for the public, then I have yet to meet one who like it 

Which is why I never use it in a scenario design. Even though I love the Scimitar and Warrior in game for many other reasons.

[Lumituisku]

In forestmachine that I work with there is this brilliand  finger wheel for steering. 

 

That made me think...  why not to have a kind flat base where rotary encoders are hidden into, and connected to finger wheels,   small wheels that can be rotated with tone finger with ease.  And  then one or more fingers could be given one or more buttons or a lever  to act as  trigger / laze   buttons or perhaps as gas-pedal / brake?     I think that would be probably the most cost effective way  to give all those who want  cost effective way to get access to traverse wheels.     

 

I think...  cheap and cost effective would be the key on this...       

 

I wonder how Traverse wheels on SB are implemented.. does SB regognice any  rotary encoder?  Or does it need another piece of software?   Also I am wondering, and perhaps hoping that AFV sim would  see this as great opportunity.  

 

It could be something that is easy to place behind keyboard and to use at convenience.   

 

Perhaps...  well, as futuristic though...  it could be used as mini steering wheel for other games too...   like   driving games.      and on such the second rotary wheel could act as cruise control, or speed / power adjuster  

 

Kind of like neat little extra cadged that fits behind every PC gamers keyboard and that can be taken in front at convenience or used there when needed.  There are many possible uses for such...   andfor ones  who prefer something like that rather than expensive bulky steering wheel or levers or other gadget's

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Lumituisku

[BlackDeath]

What about a mixed solution ?

Tapping the arrow key for manual traverse (one tap equals one hand crank) like it is right now

+

Keeping the arrows key pressed would "manual traverse" the turret full speed, simulating the gunner hand cranking continually

[Apocalypse 31]

Just now, BlackDeath said:

What about a mixed solution ?

Tapping the arrow key for manual traverse (one tap equals one hand crank) like it is right now

+

Keeping the arrows key pressed would "manual traverse" the turret full speed, simulating the gunner hand cranking continually

Or just let players use the mouse so we're not tapping buttons like weirdos. 

 

We've already established that tapping a button is not the same as using a manual traverse mechanism. 

[Apocalypse 31]

12 hours ago, DarkAngel said:

IMHO what is needed is access to an sollution which allows people to make traverse wheels at a reasonable cost

Ironically, my X52 does have 2 wheel axis.

 

BUT

 

Neither axis is recognized by Steel Beasts.

 

OR

 

the inputs for traverse up/down/left/right is not expecting an axis, only a button.

 

 

[Nike-Ajax]

13 hours ago, Ssnake said:

While I love the fact that rotary encoders and hand crank replicas exist, I would never make user interface design decisions that take these as a given. Whatever we do, things must work well without them. They are specialty items and take up considerable desk space (and even "under desk volume") so even if they were in the consumer price range I think that only a very small minority of people will ever use them for recreational purposes.

...

 

Nevertheless, intensified lobbying by a small group of users will be less convincing than a broad support by many users of this board.

 

Firstly, respectfully and allow me to be blunt:

Very few bordering on no one, will buy or build encoders etc. to play SB. So I concur fully with Ssnake, and think he puts it well.

IMHO it makes no sense to even debate it as a theoretical solution.

We have the keyboard and mouse with a joystick as a distant third.
The first two should be the basis of any realistic solution.

Secondly and without any drama, then this is not a new issue, and has been voiced clearly before.

[Brakefan]

2 hours ago, BlackDeath said:

What about a mixed solution ?

Tapping the arrow key for manual traverse (one tap equals one hand crank) like it is right now

+

Keeping the arrows key pressed would "manual traverse" the turret full speed, simulating the gunner hand cranking continually

Got to agree with this. It seems to me to be a better choice. As for hand wheels, no. I could never justify the expense just for a few vehicles in one game.

 

[Grenny]

2 hours ago, BlackDeath said:

What about a mixed solution ?

Tapping the arrow key for manual traverse (one tap equals one hand crank) like it is right now

+

Keeping the arrows key pressed would "manual traverse" the turret full speed, simulating the gunner hand cranking continually

Downside is that you'd need  small increments of one crank to fine lay the gun....my main beef with the arrow cranking is, that it is not fine enough to lay the gun propperly ...yet to slow when needing to fast traverse

 

IRL the grears are set to achieve smaller then 0,5mill accuracy. But that would mean +6400 taps on the arrow key to go one time around...

 

edit...correct: 12800 taps actually 😮

Edited January 24, 2021 by Grenny

[12Alfa]

6 minutes ago, Grenny said:

Downside is that you'd need  small increments of one crank to fine lay the gun....my main beef with the arrow cranking is, that it is not fine enough to lay the gun propperly ...yet to slow when needing to fast traverse

 

IRL the grears are set to achieve smaller then 0,5mill accuracy. But that would mean +6400 taps on the arrow key to go one time around...

Driver prepare to advance hard left for gunner, gunner take over...., or Gunner trg left prepare for 2000 taps.........your call.

 

Like I have said, veh position is important, tapping the keyboard....not so much.

 

The Scimitar/Scorpion is easily solved with the option of powered traverse, let's not over think this issue.

 

We have been here before on this issue, we have been using these AFV's for some time now. We can, and will adapt to each and every type of fire control system, thats just who we are. This is not WOT.

Edited January 24, 2021 by 12Alfa

[Apocalypse 31]

13 minutes ago, 12Alfa said:

This is not WOT

 

But repeatedly smashing the UP/DOWN/LEFT/RIGHT arrow keys to emulate a realistically smooth manual-traverse system is realistic?

 

It makes us better than WOT players?

 

15 minutes ago, 12Alfa said:

We can, and will adapt to each and every type of fire control system, thats just who we are

This is a really sad perspective too. 

 

We've had this really bad system for XX years, and have accepted it. So it must be OK. 

[12Alfa]

No one is saying this is realistic, this is a simulation....which seems to be lost on some, again.

 

It is YOUR position that this is a "bad system", you view only, and after the reason why we have such from ESim.

 

Simple dont use them, let the rest of us use them as in TGIF. We don't hear players saying they don't want to use them in the planing phase, thous, many find them useful and effective, and this with their manual traverse.

 

We, some of us have waited a long time for these AFV's to be in the sim and are grateful for the team's work in obtaining the time, effort, and resources to place said AFV's in the list of available AFV's

 

Let the search for other methods play out.

[Nike-Ajax]

Its NOT just his position. At all.

Rather its YOUR position that they are good as is.

TGIF is not the only venue or place where people play.

There is room for improvement.

[12Alfa]

54 minutes ago, Nike-Ajax said:

Its NOT just his position. At all.

Rather its YOUR position that they are good as is.

TGIF is not the only venue or place where people play.

There is room for improvement.

Its NOT just his position. At all. ok , lets check the posts about this issue.........ummmmmm.....yep same people.

Rather its YOUR position that they are good as is..........never posted that,  I stated that there are work arounds, and its a sim...your reaching .

 

TGIF is not the only venue or place where people play....No shit!

 

There is room for improvement...as many posts have  pointed out.

 

 

I suspect that this issue (and I may be incorrect here) that it's more about "hit score" that traverse speed on a known fire control system, with limited traverse speed.

 

My 2cents has been spent, feel free to carry on.....:)

[Apocalypse 31]

12 minutes ago, 12Alfa said:

ummmmmm.....yep same people.

As of the time of this posting, the poll indicates that 18 others agree that there needs to be a change. 

 

Only 8 others agree that everything is OK

 

 

EDIT

 

But - What the poll doesn't show is that there could/should be room for both ideas, as others have suggested. What I don't want to imply is that my original suggestion is the END-ALL of this. Obviously no single solution ever works. 

 

And what I don't want to recommend is that my solution saps the fun for others. 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Apocalypse 31

[thewood]

1 hour ago, Nike-Ajax said:

TGIF is not the only venue or place where people play

I think this comment should be considered a little more in discussions.