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Hand Crank Turrets


Apocalypse 31
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At the McMinnville/Evergreen Aviation Museum in Oregon they used to have a T-55,  a BRDM and a couple other armor vehicles on display. One day we got there and the BRDM was open. Someone had cut the lock . So naturally we climbed in. That hand crank to turn the turret and raise/lower the gun was a pain. I think the fast tapping on the keyboard comers as close to that as anything ever will to someone sitting comfortably at a desk in their warm cozy bedroom or office.

I am Fritz, and I approve fast tapping.

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Also I donf know if a brdm sitting in a musuem for years is the best representation of a theortical perfectly maintained vehicle in fighting shape staffed by a trained crew most simulations are using as a baseline. Forgive me if that place keeps them maintained in fighting shape I apologize if so.

 

Also no one is saying to get rid of the tapping just to give an option not to use it. This sim lets us set unlimited ammo or make vehicles invulnerable and various other things to balance the limitations of a computer and personal preference.

 

I remember back in the OFP days turning off the crosshair for maximum realism and eventually turning it back on because the end result was less realistic. In real life you have a natural feel of where your rifle is pointing and when you decide to sight in your rifle doesnt instantly teleport infront of your eye pointing at the exact point in space it was aimed at.

 

Sometimes concessions must be made in something being 1 to 1 realistic in order to more accurately replicate that things performance and use in real life.

 

Also i imagine this concession was made with the BRDM/BTR family because you are already in the most basic level of armored protection on the battlefield and requiring the keyboard tapping would not only be borderline sujcide but I would argue would lead to performance inferior to a real life gunner.

 

 

Edited by Poofydoodle
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On 2/5/2022 at 9:14 PM, Apocalypse 31 said:

Except in game the BRDM, T-55 and BTR are all allowed to use the mouse axis.

 

1) BTR-60/-70/-80 and BRDM-2. Those vehicles have very lightweight turrets  with very fast traverse and elevation gear. What is missing in SB? AZ and EL brakes, which should not be confused with EL and AZ travel locks. Note that in real life amount of braking is variable, and with  brakes fully applied attempts to traverse the turret or change elevation of the gun  would be a very interesting and frustrating experience(but this does not change gear ratios). And no, it not possible to replicate this with existing input devices available to average user.

 

2) T-55. You can use mouse in normal mode, because in real life this is 'Automatic' mode, where gun is fully stabilized and both elevation and traverse are powered. In emergency mode you can use mouse only to control traverse,  because in real life this is  semi-auto mode, without any stabilization, but with powered traverse still available. But then there is manual mode, where you should tap arrow keys, since in this mode, just like IRL, there is  neither powered elevation nor traverse. Sure, unlike real life you don't need to manually switch EL gear from  powered to manual operation(which is replicated  with T-72 series), plus ability to separately toggle on and off AZ and EL stabilization is omitted.

 

Very boring and trivial stuff.

 

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  • 7 months later...

how fast can the cranks go in mils/sec or degrees/sec (0-90)? 

 

when playing bmp-2 atgm, is there a way to reset the atgm sight to center with the gps after a reload?

how do you activate the cranks in BRDM?

 

this is a tank sim so wheel cranks are cool, no mouse in the tank!

i am using a diy crank traverse only for now (rotary encoder in bodnar board)

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Not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread, but what about a compromise. For hand crank AFVs, map the mouse wheel for lateral rotation and up/down slapping for elevation. 

 

Not sure if the game engine can use the mouse wheel this way.  For my 2 cents, just slowing down the movement with the mouse would simulate hand cranking, or alternatively, forcing the arrow keys only (no mouse option) but having them toggling movement rather than slapping.

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Personally, I find flight sims with multiple pages of options the embodiment of non-design. A developer should carefully weigh his options, and then decide which way he wants to go with a certain feature. Application design is user interface design. The UI largely influences the user experience, and if there's anything that a game developer worth his salt should aspire to do, is to create a consistent experience for his audience.

Love it or hate it, it's going to be the same for everybody, particularly in multiplayer.

 

I get it that some people don't like the button mashing. Maybe we are going to change it one day. Right now enough other topics occupy my attention.

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We could debate whether 22 out of 31 people is a sufficient majority.

But that would indirectly concede that game and user interface design was some sort of a democracy, or that design by committee delivered superior (or at least adequate) solutions.

 

That's not to say that we're simply going to ignore customer input. I indicated before that a change in the design decision is within the realm of the possible. But if you're telling me that this really is the biggest problem that must be solved, you're also telling me that Steel Beasts has reached near-perfection. Respectfully, I would disagree.

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2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

But that would indirectly concede that game and user interface design was some sort of a democracy, or that design by committee delivered superior (or at least adequate) solutions.

Sounds like a fallacy.

 

There are no other issues that anyone is asking to alter. I'm the only crazy person that is passionate about infantry, but that's about it.

 

This was a very specific discussion....with a few recommendations that would appease both parties.

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24 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

How about 43 out of 64 voting members?

 

That's actually lower, 67%, than 22 out of 31 (71%) but it misses the key point that it doesn't really matter.

 

Even if (and let's very very generous here) those 65 people (43+22) were different individuals, the development team own the train set.

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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1 hour ago, Gibsonm said:

Even if (and let's very very generous here) those 65 people (43+22) were different individuals, the development team own the train set.

 

image.thumb.png.3f3c6e41b5ca323c77e70a4ac7fa7a28.png

 

I seriously doubt that Steel Beasts players are going to make multiple forum accounts so they can spike a poll.

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3 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

 

image.thumb.png.3f3c6e41b5ca323c77e70a4ac7fa7a28.png

 

I seriously doubt that Steel Beasts players are going to make multiple forum accounts so they can spike a poll.

 

No I'm not suggesting that.

 

Just that the same people who voted the first time (22) may well have backed up for the second one (43) as well.

 

Edited by Gibsonm
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15 minutes ago, Gibsonm said:

 

No I'm not suggesting that.

 

Just that the same people who voted the first time (22) may well have backed up for the second one (43) as well.

 

 

What first time?

This is the same poll mentioned earlier. 

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While polls are nice, I might have mentioned already in the previous pages (maybe not though?), the key tapping is mostly due to the fact that this is the only way manual AZ and EL movement can be replicated with control wheels. That is, an actual controller that has rotating wheels (the military has these, and so do some people in the community) where so many partial or complete revolutions of a wheel triggers a key press. Hence, the key tapping.  You can't do this with mouse movements and there is no way around that. Someone could certainly argue that mouse AND key taps should be possible, but then that doesn't take into account nor differentiate between the inherent advantages of some systems, for example the Leopard 2A5++ manual turret control which is done through backup electric motors (IIRC), versus the M1 that relies on purely manual control handles, so its a bit more complicated of a design issue than one might think. 

 

Just because people think something is unnecessary or that they don't like it, doesn't mean that they understand all the reasons why it exists. It also doesn't make sense to base design off of community surveys, because then all of these things have to be explained when we know why they were done for a reason, or worse, we sometimes don't remember the reason.  Certainly some design elements can be based off of popular opinion/polling, but making a simulation cannot be an exercise in "democracy" either (like democracy - not everyone understand what they are voting for, which is pretty bad when it comes to game design). But we also don't want to be like: "You know that poll that was done? Sorry, but not going to happen, and here is why (long explanation that might cause disagreements)." It's not nice to do. Certainly though polls can help prioritize long term improvements though, but not everything can or should be acted on, is all I am saying here. 

 

All that said, there are some inconsistencies in the design here and that is known -- such as the BMP-2's ATGM launcher that must be controlled with key taps  for the tiny traverse wheels, but then the same dismounted launcher uses mouse traverse. In this particular case the mouse and key taps should be possible on both for various reasons.  So if anything, the consistency should be the main issue to resolve here.  👍

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9 hours ago, Volcano said:

All that said, there are some inconsistencies in the design here and that is known -- such as the BMP-2's ATGM launcher that must be controlled with key taps  for the tiny traverse wheels, but then the same dismounted launcher uses mouse traverse. In this particular case the mouse and key taps should be possible on both for various reasons.  So if anything, the consistency should be the main issue to resolve here.  👍

 

I agree!   

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