Hand Crank Turrets

[iamfritz]

At the McMinnville/Evergreen Aviation Museum in Oregon they used to have a T-55,  a BRDM and a couple other armor vehicles on display. One day we got there and the BRDM was open. Someone had cut the lock . So naturally we climbed in. That hand crank to turn the turret and raise/lower the gun was a pain. I think the fast tapping on the keyboard comers as close to that as anything ever will to someone sitting comfortably at a desk in their warm cozy bedroom or office.

I am Fritz, and I approve fast tapping.

[Apocalypse 31]

1 hour ago, iamfritz said:

That hand crank to turn the turret and raise/lower the gun was a pain

Except in game the BRDM, T-55 and BTR are all allowed to use the mouse axis.

[Poofydoodle]

Also I donf know if a brdm sitting in a musuem for years is the best representation of a theortical perfectly maintained vehicle in fighting shape staffed by a trained crew most simulations are using as a baseline. Forgive me if that place keeps them maintained in fighting shape I apologize if so.

 

Also no one is saying to get rid of the tapping just to give an option not to use it. This sim lets us set unlimited ammo or make vehicles invulnerable and various other things to balance the limitations of a computer and personal preference.

 

I remember back in the OFP days turning off the crosshair for maximum realism and eventually turning it back on because the end result was less realistic. In real life you have a natural feel of where your rifle is pointing and when you decide to sight in your rifle doesnt instantly teleport infront of your eye pointing at the exact point in space it was aimed at.

 

Sometimes concessions must be made in something being 1 to 1 realistic in order to more accurately replicate that things performance and use in real life.

 

Also i imagine this concession was made with the BRDM/BTR family because you are already in the most basic level of armored protection on the battlefield and requiring the keyboard tapping would not only be borderline sujcide but I would argue would lead to performance inferior to a real life gunner.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Poofydoodle

[Jartsev]

On 2/5/2022 at 9:14 PM, Apocalypse 31 said:

Except in game the BRDM, T-55 and BTR are all allowed to use the mouse axis.

 

1) BTR-60/-70/-80 and BRDM-2. Those vehicles have very lightweight turrets  with very fast traverse and elevation gear. What is missing in SB? AZ and EL brakes, which should not be confused with EL and AZ travel locks. Note that in real life amount of braking is variable, and with  brakes fully applied attempts to traverse the turret or change elevation of the gun  would be a very interesting and frustrating experience(but this does not change gear ratios). And no, it not possible to replicate this with existing input devices available to average user.

 

2) T-55. You can use mouse in normal mode, because in real life this is 'Automatic' mode, where gun is fully stabilized and both elevation and traverse are powered. In emergency mode you can use mouse only to control traverse,  because in real life this is  semi-auto mode, without any stabilization, but with powered traverse still available. But then there is manual mode, where you should tap arrow keys, since in this mode, just like IRL, there is  neither powered elevation nor traverse. Sure, unlike real life you don't need to manually switch EL gear from  powered to manual operation(which is replicated  with T-72 series), plus ability to separately toggle on and off AZ and EL stabilization is omitted.

 

Very boring and trivial stuff.

 

[Toxzic]

how fast can the cranks go in mils/sec or degrees/sec (0-90)? 

 

when playing bmp-2 atgm, is there a way to reset the atgm sight to center with the gps after a reload?

how do you activate the cranks in BRDM?

 

this is a tank sim so wheel cranks are cool, no mouse in the tank!

i am using a diy crank traverse only for now (rotary encoder in bodnar board)

[General Tobruk]

Not sure if it has been mentioned in this thread, but what about a compromise. For hand crank AFVs, map the mouse wheel for lateral rotation and up/down slapping for elevation. 

 

Not sure if the game engine can use the mouse wheel this way.  For my 2 cents, just slowing down the movement with the mouse would simulate hand cranking, or alternatively, forcing the arrow keys only (no mouse option) but having them toggling movement rather than slapping.

[will14]

could it be made as an option to use the mouse? would be the best of both worlds..i personally do not like the arrow keys ether

[Ssnake]

Personally, I find flight sims with multiple pages of options the embodiment of non-design. A developer should carefully weigh his options, and then decide which way he wants to go with a certain feature. Application design is user interface design. The UI largely influences the user experience, and if there's anything that a game developer worth his salt should aspire to do, is to create a consistent experience for his audience.

Love it or hate it, it's going to be the same for everybody, particularly in multiplayer.

 

I get it that some people don't like the button mashing. Maybe we are going to change it one day. Right now enough other topics occupy my attention.

[Apocalypse 31]

3 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I get it that some people don't like the button mashing

"Some people".

 

It was 70% of the people who took the survey who said it wasn't fun.

 

[Ssnake]

We could debate whether 22 out of 31 people is a sufficient majority.

But that would indirectly concede that game and user interface design was some sort of a democracy, or that design by committee delivered superior (or at least adequate) solutions.

 

That's not to say that we're simply going to ignore customer input. I indicated before that a change in the design decision is within the realm of the possible. But if you're telling me that this really is the biggest problem that must be solved, you're also telling me that Steel Beasts has reached near-perfection. Respectfully, I would disagree.

[Apocalypse 31]

2 hours ago, Ssnake said:

But that would indirectly concede that game and user interface design was some sort of a democracy, or that design by committee delivered superior (or at least adequate) solutions.

Sounds like a fallacy.

 

There are no other issues that anyone is asking to alter. I'm the only crazy person that is passionate about infantry, but that's about it.

 

This was a very specific discussion....with a few recommendations that would appease both parties.

[Mirzayev]

How about 43 out of 64 voting members? 

 

 

[Gibsonm]

24 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

How about 43 out of 64 voting members?

 

That's actually lower, 67%, than 22 out of 31 (71%) but it misses the key point that it doesn't really matter.

 

Even if (and let's very very generous here) those 65 people (43+22) were different individuals, the development team own the train set.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Gibsonm

[Mirzayev]

1 hour ago, Gibsonm said:

Even if (and let's very very generous here) those 65 people (43+22) were different individuals, the development team own the train set.

 

 

I seriously doubt that Steel Beasts players are going to make multiple forum accounts so they can spike a poll.

[Gibsonm]

3 minutes ago, Mirzayev said:

 

 

I seriously doubt that Steel Beasts players are going to make multiple forum accounts so they can spike a poll.

 

No I'm not suggesting that.

 

Just that the same people who voted the first time (22) may well have backed up for the second one (43) as well.

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by Gibsonm

[Mirzayev]

15 minutes ago, Gibsonm said:

 

No I'm not suggesting that.

 

Just that the same people who voted the first time (22) may well have backed up for the second one (43) as well.

 

 

What first time?

This is the same poll mentioned earlier. 

[Volcano]

While polls are nice, I might have mentioned already in the previous pages (maybe not though?), the key tapping is mostly due to the fact that this is the only way manual AZ and EL movement can be replicated with control wheels. That is, an actual controller that has rotating wheels (the military has these, and so do some people in the community) where so many partial or complete revolutions of a wheel triggers a key press. Hence, the key tapping.  You can't do this with mouse movements and there is no way around that. Someone could certainly argue that mouse AND key taps should be possible, but then that doesn't take into account nor differentiate between the inherent advantages of some systems, for example the Leopard 2A5++ manual turret control which is done through backup electric motors (IIRC), versus the M1 that relies on purely manual control handles, so its a bit more complicated of a design issue than one might think. 

 

Just because people think something is unnecessary or that they don't like it, doesn't mean that they understand all the reasons why it exists. It also doesn't make sense to base design off of community surveys, because then all of these things have to be explained when we know why they were done for a reason, or worse, we sometimes don't remember the reason.  Certainly some design elements can be based off of popular opinion/polling, but making a simulation cannot be an exercise in "democracy" either (like democracy - not everyone understand what they are voting for, which is pretty bad when it comes to game design). But we also don't want to be like: "You know that poll that was done? Sorry, but not going to happen, and here is why (long explanation that might cause disagreements)." It's not nice to do. Certainly though polls can help prioritize long term improvements though, but not everything can or should be acted on, is all I am saying here. 

 

All that said, there are some inconsistencies in the design here and that is known -- such as the BMP-2's ATGM launcher that must be controlled with key taps  for the tiny traverse wheels, but then the same dismounted launcher uses mouse traverse. In this particular case the mouse and key taps should be possible on both for various reasons.  So if anything, the consistency should be the main issue to resolve here.  👍

[Lumituisku]

9 hours ago, Volcano said:

All that said, there are some inconsistencies in the design here and that is known -- such as the BMP-2's ATGM launcher that must be controlled with key taps  for the tiny traverse wheels, but then the same dismounted launcher uses mouse traverse. In this particular case the mouse and key taps should be possible on both for various reasons.  So if anything, the consistency should be the main issue to resolve here.  👍

 

I agree!   

[imdancin]

I guess if we're looking for more opinions on this issue I'll throw mine in.  I've made SB missions off and on for a few years now for a friend group and some of the most fun I've had is using the RCL techie and its janky hand cranks.  However, its always a tough sell to my friends to get them to play vehicles with manual traverse due to nobody liking to mash the arrow keys.  I think we would have had even more fun blasting T-55s and running for the hills if there was a mouse/joystick control option for the RCL techies.  As Apocalypse said, I think we still would have had plenty of panicky good times if mouse controls were an option as long as the traverse was still realistically slow.  Everything is a compromise, and in my opinion mouse controls would better replicate the effect of a real crew using hand cranks for those that don't have the real things.  

 

Edit:  Misread the dates on this topic as being from January of this year.  Still, happy to add my opinion even if the thread is old.  

Edited February 1 by imdancin

[Ssnake]

Thanks, any input is welcome!

[Arch]

I personally see no downside to having hand cranked controls operate via mouse controls but just have a realistically slow traverse rate. I would also like to add that the traverse rate for some vehicles appears to be off either way, like the Scimitar based on previous user feedback from real examples. I've seen it claimed that the traverse, even on the fast setting, is simply slow. Not every turret is a massive MBT turret that is a workout to manually traverse.

 

The button control could be left in for replica controller users, or people who just prefer it for whatever reason, but I don't really see a reason why SB users should essentially inflict themselves with repetitive strain injury and gain no additional simulation benefits from it. The pros and cons just don't add up to me.

[Volcano]

As I mentioned here (because the complaint about the M60 cupola's change):

 

 

One thing we have thought about is to allow holding (as opposed to pressing) the manual traverse key to cause it to max-rate tap while the key is held. 

 

The tapping keys were never designed to be "fun", they were designed to differentiate between a level of responsiveness and required effort. For example, rhetorically speaking, if you could traverse the M1A1's turret manually with the mouse or joystick, then how does that differentiate itself from the late Leo 2s which have an electric turret traverse? It blurs the line too much, when in reality the M1's manual traverse requires so much effort, that in real life the gunner actually would NOT be traversing it at all to "scan", but would instead only move the turret when vitally necessary to aim at a target, while the Leo 2's electric motors would support you to the degree that you could scan slowly.

 

Conversely, if you forced the BRDM / BTR turret to traverse with key presses, then you would force the player to only move the turret in emergencies (to avoid exertion), which is contrary to how the turret is designed (it is a light turret, with gunner suspended in a chair, moving with the turret, and hand crank being off to side of body, with little effort to operate). So, some manual traverse can be done with the mouse/joystick, but a lot of design considerations are made when deciding this (BTR / BRDM is the best example). 

 

But maybe a compromise with a key-hold behavior might be good here.

 

In any case, there is no perfect solution. Comments don't really help clarify anything other than what we already know (that it is a PITA to manually traverse some turrets).  The whole feature is about preventing unrealistic behavior more than anything, but let's see if we can make improvements with key-holds. 

[Gibsonm]

There is this now:

 

 

Caveats:

 

1. I haven't used and most likely don't intend to, so I can't tell you how it performs.

 

2. As its a 3rd party piece of software I would not be posting here expecting eSim to support it.

 

[Arch]

Personally I support the idea of Mousecrank if not just for accessability reasons. People can do whatever in their own singleplayer/curated multiplayer experiences; I think SB is best played as an RTS at company/battalion level and most the playerbase plays it as a tank sim in platoon level; not sure why we can't have preferences for controls too.

 

Military clients are a different matter, but I'm not really familiar with that side of things.

[Volcano]

Also, FWIW, as I mentioned in the other thread, most Logitech keyboards support programming of keys and multiple profiles for different games.

 

You can put have the "G keys" to press a key (or a series of keys) and you can specify where you can hold them down for continuous key presses, and can set the millisecond interval between them. One could very easily set a key to tap left or right traverse at 0 ms interval, while held. 

 

Just something to consider in the mean time. The Logitech keyboards are very useful with all sorts of simulators.