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How do you order a gunner to keep still?


Bloke
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I get that shift+arrow key can order the gunner to scan different areas, but how do you get them to keep still?

 

I don't want to slave them to the TC's scope, just stop them doing constant and pointless scans 45 degrees left and right. 

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Why would you want the gunner to not scan?

It's his JOB to find new threats. Maybe our AI gunners are not good enough at this, but they wouldn't get any better by keeping the turret still.

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11 hours ago, Bloke said:

I get that shift+arrow key can order the gunner to scan different areas, but how do you get them to keep still?

 

I don't want to slave them to the TC's scope, just stop them doing constant and pointless scans 45 degrees left and right. 

 

Yes SHIFT and UP will order him to Scan Front, but only for a few seconds.

 

You can set the field of fire really narrow for your current battle position.  That will reduce how wide gunners scan.

Edited by ben
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11 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Why would you want the gunner to not scan?

It's his JOB to find new threats. Maybe our AI gunners are not good enough at this, but they wouldn't get any better by keeping the turret still.

It would make it easier to drive while unbuttoned or staring out of a small window. 

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On 3/11/2021 at 6:09 AM, Bloke said:

It would make it easier to drive while unbuttoned or staring out of a small window. 

 I may be reading this incorrect..that being said, you (as a rule) can not drive unbuttoned,AND, look through a small window at the same time.

 

Or am I missing something here?

 

If you are being distracted by the tube (gun) while driving, then driving is not your calling, In my day you became the loader, or a officer (pun).

Thous, you rarely see officers driving, there is a reason for this, now you know, it's all about safety.......LOL......

 

Now , what is hampering your driving in regards to the gun moving (as it should) except in adm moves?

 

 

Edited by 12Alfa
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Thanks for the reply. I'm still working out the game. 🙂

 

So far, I've only played single player ("Instant Action") and I always hit F7 and stay as the Tank Commander for the entire encounter (5 mins if I'm lucky). I also drive around using the WASD (plus X) keys, and it doesn't help that the gunner swings the barrel so much. I've only learned the Leopard 2 so far, so I either stare out of a tiny block window (which the gunner swings around), stand up (slightly better because the cupola seems to keep more-or-less still, but I still can't see the front of the tank because the turret is so big), or staring at the TIS and locking the periscope forward. None of these works well.

 

I suspect the answer is to stop trying to drive the tank as a TC (using WASD as though you are character in an FPS game) and start plotting routes ... 😃

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6 minutes ago, Bloke said:

F8 is disabled when I click on "instant action".

 

Also, for me, that view ruins the sense of immersion which is what I am looking for in a simulator. 

 

"Instant Action" isn't a standard scenario and I wouldn't use it to assess routine scenarios.

 

As the name implies and if I remember correctly its explicitly mentioned in the Briefing) its meant to be you in the Gunner's position faced oncoming hordes of targets. The vehicle is even constrained within a manoeuvre box.

 

You will eventually die, its just a question of how long you hold out for.

 

For other scenarios, the designer, using the Mission Editor, can disable certain crew positions / views to focus you in line with their concept.

 

If you want to experience the F8 role, you might want to look at one of the standard single player scenarios?

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I don't get that message in the briefing for "instant action". It just says you are constrained within a circle. Nothing about which position is best. 

 

I probably need to download or create a scenario called "a simple one-on-one for a moron". 🙂

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Instant Action is not meant to be much more than a quick relief for itchy trigger fingers. That being said, plotting routes with multiple alternative firing positions along your ridge lines (so all that you need to do is to hit C whenever the tungsten concentration in your surrounding air becomes too high for comfort) will help you to shift your attention to more important matters. Like, identifying choke points and blocking them (it's a matter of timing).

You don't have much room for maneuver, but if we had wanted to nail you in a spot we'd have immobilized your tank.

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20 hours ago, 12Alfa said:

Starting with the tutorials is best for most to bring you up to speed on AFV/tank control.:)

Of course. I've done all the tutorials for the Leopard 2 at least twice (A4 and A5), and the TC tutorials many times.

 

(As a Brit, I would have chosen the Challenger 2 but the internal graphics are too basic.)

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Hello. I have some more questions, but didn't want to start a new thread so I thought I'd post them here. Really enjoying the game so far! 🙂

 

- Can I change the settings on the M1A2 so that the TC override toggles instead of having to constantly press 'p' or click the mouse wheel?

- On the M1A2 I can operate the override as a TC while standing up outside the tank and looking around, which is very cool. Is this available on any Leopard 2 models? If not, does that reflect a difference in the real-life tanks or is it just something missing from the game mechanics? The only reason I ask is that I'm more likely to stick with the Leopard 2 if that difference reflects a genuine handicap.

 

Many thanks! 

Edited by Bloke
I worked out the issue - M2A2 is not a "tank"!
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WRT #2, the override handles are mounted in different locations. On the M1 and earlier they are barely within reach, on the Leopard barely out of reach. So, a difference in real life capabilities. Whether the difference is so dramatic in practice is a different matter.

 

I suspect that it is not, for the following reasons:

 

It's very hard to eyeball an override with sufficient precision that the gunner actually has the target in his field of view. Even if you get the azimuth right (which is hard enough, given that the gunner has a field of view of about 5°), chances are you're pointing the sight too high up or you overcompensate and push gun and sight too low. So you need to describe the gunner what you're seeing, and you need his feedback whether he just saw a terrain feature whizzing by (and who knows it if was the same and not something that also fit the description vaguely).

By the time that you and the gunner agree that you're looking at the same thing the Leopard commander, after memorizing the scene near the target that he just notices, slwes his periscope in 2X mag in the proper direction, centers on target while zooming in, then hits override and the gunner's view lands right on spot. There is no ambiguity, no misunderstandings. If there's a tank in sight, that's the one. And while the turret still swings over the commander probably already orders, "tank, fire!" and if sabot is loaded the gunner can simply respond "Identified, on the way" and let rip.

 

Of course the M1 commander could just as well drop into his seat and use the sight extension to see what the gunner can see while he's overriding with care, and stop once that he has found his target again. Which probably delivers results faster, on average, than the hasty method that I described first.

 

 

So, I'd say it's a difference in design philosophy that probably doesn't make a dramatic difference in real life. In Steel Beasts, overriding "from the hip" is probably easier than it is in real life.

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In my experience as an M60A1 gunner laying the gun on target while the TC has his head outside the hatch is an acquired skill.  I remember seeing most TCs practicing at least a little when in the field and a lot when on the range.  I had a couple of TCs the were good and a couple of TCs that were excellent.

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I'm not saying that it's impossible to train it, but why then switched the M1A2SEP to the philosophy of an independent periscope for the commander. What you save in hardware costs you seem to lose in CDR training time, and then I suspect that the overall engagement time is also slower from the moment of detection to the gunner's pull of the trigger.

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This "skill" was lost I think when AFV started to obtain the "hunter killer" system (hardware/software). 

 

CRV turrets , and the crews that operated them trained on commander/gunner target identification.

 

It went for our training,

Cmdr see's Trg, calls ,

 

Gnr, tank 2000m, "traverse" right/left - as the turret is moving (fast), Cmdr calls Gnr "slow", and Gnr slows the turret.

 

Near Trg Cmdr calls "Steady", telling the Gnr that the Trg is coming into his view. Gnr see's Trg, calls "Target", Cmdr call Fire order. 

 

The Cmdr has power traverse to guide Gnr to local direction, then the above method is employed.

 

Other armies use a similar skill set, small changes to orders, method, but in the end both sights (Cmdr/Gnr) are aligned, and Trg is Id'd, and hopefully engaged.

 

There are other methods that can be employed as well, all taught and practiced by crews in gunnery/Cmdr training.

 

This skill becomes useful in SB when the Gnr sight is damaged, or the Gnr does not see the Trg for some unknown reason, :)

 

It is said that the Turret fairy  can use such a method, as of yet no fairy's have come forward to confirm.

 

 

*DISCLAIMER* This post is meant as instructional with added humor. No disrespect to Cmdr.Gnr, or any Turret fairy is implied, or suggested.

Edited by 12Alfa
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Interesting replies, many thanks.

 

I was basically wondering if a TC on an M1A2 had something like a pair of goggles connected to the tank's electronics, so that an override would point the barrel exactly where the TC is looking. Maybe that's something for future generations of tanks - the technology is certainly there. Or maybe the idea of sticking your head outside of a tank is outdated given the amount of data from all the sensors. Then again, maybe the entire concept of having any humans inside the tank at all won't last long...

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4 minutes ago, Bloke said:

Interesting replies, many thanks.

 

I was basically wondering if a TC on an M1A2 had something like a pair of goggles connected to the tank's electronics, so that an override would point the barrel exactly where the TC is looking. Maybe that's something for future generations of tanks - the technology is certainly there. Or maybe the idea of sticking your head outside of a tank is outdated given the amount of data from all the sensors. Then again, maybe the entire concept of having any humans inside the tank at all won't last long...

On most turrets there are aiming points. Being the edge of a piece of equipment or actual aiming marks that the Cmdr can use.

For the CRV's it was the right side of the Cmdr's sight hood.

I am told that the M1A2 the front of the Cmdr is really hard to see over, and around. Making the use of bino's forward useless.

Others can confirm this.

Edited by 12Alfa
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In the Leopardo 2E, while looking through the vision blocks you can designate a direction (Arrow Up, I think), and the periscope will automatically traverse to that direction. Then you can inspect what you just detected, and if necessary override the gunner. It's not exactly a link between binoculars and fire control system, but probably what comes closest to it in real life which is also simulated in Steel Beasts.

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Just now, Ssnake said:

In the Leopardo 2E, while looking through the vision blocks you can designate a direction (Arrow Up, I think), and the periscope will automatically traverse to that direction. Then you can inspect what you just detected, and if necessary override the gunner. It's not exactly a link between binoculars and fire control system, but probably what comes closest to it in real life which is also simulated in Steel Beasts.

The Centurion has a similar Bino setup, if I'm reading this correct.

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Only if you're controlling the Peri view. Let me emphasize, the thing in the Leopardo 2E is that there's some sort of a rubber band mounted above the vision blocks that you can pull down to where you spotted something suspicious, and that will steer the peri in that direction. Only then would you override the gunner to bring the gun on target.

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